Crawford, Louise M., 1912-2006

              INTERVIEW: Fall 1980
INTERVIEWER: Ann Brown and Students in POL 375
INTERVIEWEE: Louise Crawford [a Worker in the Pengelly Building During
the Sit-Down Strike]
CRAWFORD: Well, have a seat. I almost didn't make it, again.
BROWN: Why, what was the problem?
CRAWFORD: Well, I went to my boyfriend's for Thanksgiving and I have been
a little worried about staying alone. So I stayed with my sister. Do
you want to sit there?
BROWN: No, this is fine.
CRAWFORD: Well, honey, these chairs...?
BROWN: No, this is fine.
CRAWFORD: Well anyway, as I said, I've been a little worried so...and my
mother was with my sister for Thanksgiving and I hadn't seen her. So I
went out there last night. And when we came back--my sister is on her
way to Canada--so we got caught in a terrible traffic jam coming out of
Genesee Valley. And we didn't, either of us, think of it before, but you
know the day after Thanksgiving is always just awful.
BROWN: Right.
CRAWFORD: Everybody suddenly gets the Christmas spirit. And they had it
today, I guess. So that's what happened; and I got here at ten to three.
And everything is in such a mess.
BROWN: Oh, well.
CRAWFORD: Well, I always make pies...wherever I go I make pies; that's my
product. And I didn't think I'd ever get this darn thing finished the
other night; and the kitchen's still a mess and I haven't been back here
since.
BROWN: We won't look and we won't tell.
CRAWFORD: I'm sorry, I should close the door.
BROWN: I'll turn my back to it.
CRAWFORD: I had a friend who did that. She let her dishes...she hated
dishes. She'd let them go for weeks, just shut the kitchen door and
ignore them.
BROWN: That's a good way to do it.
CRAWFORD: No, not really. But anyway, what would you like to know that I
might be able to...?
BROWN: We got this one picture here that is the way it used to be before
they tore it down...that's the only thing I have of the Pengelly
Building. That's the side part of it.
CRAWFORD: Yes, I know.
BROWN: You said you didn't remember...
CRAWFORD: It seemed to me that it was on the third floor, the offices.
But my sister said, "No"; but of course I'm the one that worked there.
BROWN: Right.
STUDENT: Is your sister Geraldine?
CRAWFORD: Do you know David...what's his name?...Robinson, Robertson who
lives next door to her...when he came over to interview her the other day
about...I don't know...it was something about the strike, but I...perhaps
about Fisher Body part of it or what, because she worked at Fisher
office.
BROWN: Oh, I see.
CRAWFORD: Yes. Pattersons.
BROWN: What is it you do remember about the building and what happened,
and anything that comes to mind when you see that, you know?
CRAWFORD: Well, what comes to mind is that we used to always go in this
side here and up those stairs and by the time you get to the top you were
a little puffy; I'd never make it now. But I think the offices... I'm
pretty sure they were on the third floor; I can't say for sure. But I
know that we met a lot of important people and that there were...for
instance...two newsmen whose names became quite famous after...Paul
Gallico and David Lawrence.
BROWN: Oh, really.
CRAWFORD: They used to come up there together. And in fact, they got
very mad at me one time, because I wouldn't let them in to see Bob
Travis. And Paul Gallico is a very dark person and he got so mad I
thought he was going to have apoplexy and he actually turned purple!
Just awfully mad, but we found out later he was a very talented person.
STUDENT: Were you back there as a secretary?
CRAWFORD: No, I worked on the window. And wherever I work...no matter
where I work...I always work by the window where I like to meet people. I
enjoy meeting people; I don't care for titles, particularly.
BROWN: What was it you did?
CRAWFORD: What did I do? Well, at first the main thing to do was just to
take dues and to give information...anything that would come up and of
course there would be news. They'd get news by telephone, usually.
Anything that would happen or whatever was going on either Chevy or
Fisher, whichever or Fisher 2. And there was always a big mob hanging
around to care what was going on. They couldn't be all places, of
course. And they were there to go wherever they were needed, so...
BROWN: Needed in what way?
CRAWFORD: Well, they were needed sometimes physically, you know.
BROWN: Oh, I see, yes.
CRAWFORD: And we were...
BROWN: Banding together to protect each other.
CRAWFORD: Yes. We had...of course naturally we were not allowed any arms
of any sort. But we could have some two by twos standing in the corner
about yeah long, because there were always rumors that we were going to
be raided. Either, we didn't know if it was the police or what or
General Motors goons or what.
STUDENT: Did you ever have any trouble?
CRAWFORD: I had trouble, but not while I worked there...later, when the
union split...the Martin faction. There were two factions at odds with
each other, and of course, my Dad was dead set against Homer Martin. So
everybody knew that. So these characters who were behind him and it was,
I think, a union-splitting device, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, three
of these big...when I was working at AC office then, these big gorillas
came over to the office, and I was there by myself, and there was a
little rail about this high around the desk, and it was spring, and it
was baseball season. And again, not two by twos but baseball bats were
in the corner. So they were gonna mop the ground with me. They were
either gonna kill me or they were gonna...and they said so; they said so.
These three huge men, you know. And I was terrified, but mad. I was so
mad I just felt red! So I grabbed a baseball bat and I said, "The first
one of you characters to cross that rail is gonna get his brain
splattered on the wall!" And do you know those three men walked out of
that place and I couldn't resist taunting them, when they were leaving.
I said, "You're so brave, I just can't believe it!"
BROWN: Oh, my gosh.
CRAWFORD: They didn't have the guts to beat up a woman. But that's the
way they treated me.
STUDENT: What was the year?
CRAWFORD: Oh, let me think; seems to me, well let me think, when was
that?
BROWN: This was after the union was organized...
CRAWFORD: Oh yes, oh yes, that was over.
BROWN: And it was organized and it was all together. And then they had
the...
CRAWFORD: I guess. Well I know there used to be a lot of weeping and
hollering down there...at the last part when Homer Martin used to come
there. And then the Reuther boys come there...the Reuther boys, the
three of them. I knew all of them.
BROWN: Did you?
CRAWFORD: Yes, and they were dynamite, really.
BROWN: How was it like in the Pengelly Building? I understand that there
was like a place to eat and beer and food...or what was it like?
CRAWFORD: I think they had beer there, probably. I never drank beer, so
I don't know for sure about that. And I was, as I say, I was working in
the office. And they did have ladies in the emergency brigade who made,
just made sandwiches by the hundreds, and boloney! I mean there wasn't
anywhere else to go; we didn't have money, you know. So it was boloney
sandwiches or nothing, and it was delicious, I guess if you had enough
mustard to go on them. And then there was a bar downstairs...you
mentioned that the other day. You know, I had completely forgotten that,
because I was never in there.
STUDENT: Did that take the whole first floor up, that bar?
CRAWFORD: I don't think so.
BROWN: Were the women encouraged to be part of the group in the
organization in the talking about what was going on and the dispensing of
the information? How did you, as a woman, blend in with the guys that
were doing the things that had to be done.
CRAWFORD: I don't know; we were one of the boys.
BROWN: Ah, nice, nice.
CRAWFORD: Really, at least I was. It seemed to me that was the attitude;
everything was business. I mean we all were concentrating on one thing
and that was to get this thing organized and get the thing together.
BROWN: Oh, that's just absolutely thrilling; gives me the goose bumps; it
really does!
CRAWFORD: But, like all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy, sometimes
we had to have a little fun. So on like a Saturday night they would have
a dance. And I was actually afraid; that old building would just Sway,
SWAY!
BROWN: How neat!
CRAWFORD: But it was a lot of fun. I mean, they put as much enthusiasm
in that as they did in the strike itself. And it was really fun. And my
folks...my mother, of course my dad was in the shop...my mother opened
her home to these people who had come from out of town to help. And
there were two fellows there from Toledo and a girl from Detroit who was
working in the office. And these fellows came up to help with the strike
as well. I've forgotten what's in Toledo now, where they worked. But
they stayed there in our house and they dug right in. Mom wasn't well
and they dug right in. One, especially, Tom Dolan used to go down and
help with the laundry...he'd do the laundry. And they were wonderful. I
mean every day they did so many things that...maybe they'd never done
before; I don't know.
BROWN: Isn't that nice. Where was it your dad worked; what factory?
CRAWFORD: He worked in Fisher, Fisher 1.
BROWN: Over there on Saginaw.
CRAWFORD: Right over here.
BROWN: And how did you get to be that involved...just as being the
secretary? How did it come about that you were there?
CRAWFORD: Well, this strike had just started and my Dad got word to me
that they needed help downtown. So I went down and volunteered my
services to do anything I could; I didn't care what. So they said,
"Okay". And I started in to work there and they said I was a good worker
and they were going to keep me. So I worked for them for three years
until I got married and started a family.
BROWN: Downtown being the Pengelly Building, right.
CRAWFORD: Well, I worked there...I worked at Pengelly Building. And then
I opened the office at the Buick. I opened the first office up there.
STUDENT: Was it like another union local, maybe?
CRAWFORD: At first, no. But then they did take over their own number and
Fisher took 581 and so on. And I worked there; I worked at AC and I
worked at Chevrolet offices also...all of them, wherever I happened to be
needed. And some of the most thrilling years of my life I spent there; I
mean I'm one I like a little scare now and then and I got it!
BROWN: You say your dad got the information to you that you were needed.
Where was he and what was happening?
CRAWFORD: Well, when he was in the Fisher Body and we used to go out and
picket out there and I got a chance to talk to him and he told me. He
said, "They need help downtown, I heard." So I went downtown and I
talked to Lou...what was her name?
STUDENT: Lou Scott?
CRAWFORD: Lou Scott. And she was Bob's secretary. And I told her who I
was and that was it. And I remember, I think it was the first day I was
there I worked eighteen hours; and there were lots of days like
that...about eighteen hours.
STUDENT: What sort of duties did you get?
CRAWFORD: What kind of duties? Mostly making receipts. There were
thousands of them...to take in the money; it was a dollar then. And
mainly writing the receipts, posting them and so on at that time. And as
I said, giving out information that came in.
BROWN: It was rather like a regular hot bed with people comin' and goin'
and things happening.
CRAWFORD: It was that! It was that.
BROWN: Was there a feeling of the unity of "we ban together"?
CRAWFORD: Yes, I think there's nothing like the pressure of big
corporations, the pressures of the people. And they were so tired of
having these things pushed off on them. The low wages; if you don't like
it, forget it. And I can remember since I was a little kid that my Dad
would come home and say he had been fired because some guy was bringing
the boss whiskey and he was getting the job; and they fired my dad and
just replaced him. And so I was raised thinking of the big corporation
as being the big bad wolf. And that's how I got into it, and I've always
been. I still recall a girl I had known from school, who was working for
Metropolitan Insurance Company for the grand salary of ten dollars a
week. And I was getting twenty-two fifty then. She said, "Well, I
wouldn't work for them no matter how much they paid me." And I said,
"Well, you stay with Metropolitan; that's up to you." But twenty-two
fifty a week then was quite a nice salary.
BROWN: That was what you were paid for the union work that you did.
CRAWFORD: That was what I was paid.
BROWN: What was your dad's name?
CRAWFORD: Jay Green.
BROWN: Jay Green. It seems really neat to be able to re-experience it
with you, to feel what was happening at the time. What was the diversive
tactics? What did they do with the people once you started trying to
formulate the group in the union and become crowded. What were some of
the tricks that they pulled on the people, if you can remember these?
CRAWFORD: Well, of course, they had the backing...General Motors had the
backing of the media, and we would hear on the radio and see the big
headlines in the paper about what nasty people union people were and how
awful they were and how unfair their demands were. General Motors was
saying...they were crying in their beer and saying that they couldn't
afford those wages because they were gonna go broke. And as it happened,
the more they paid, the more money they made and the more profits they
made. So, of course, and I think right now there's a movement afoot. It
seems to me just little things I see and read about here and there,
there's a movement afoot...union busting tactics. And these young people
who don't remember what their fathers and their grandfathers had to go
through are really going to have to work to keep it together. And much
to their sorrow if they don't, because it will be back to slavery again.
And that is literally slavery...just wage slaves, that's all.
BROWN: Right. What were the feelings of...what can you remember about
the bond, the unity that was established between Bob Travis and the
people that were really bonding it and fighting against the odds?
CRAWFORD: Bob Travis was idolized; he really was. You know, probably he
just died a short time ago.
BROWN: Yes.
CRAWFORD: I don't recall exactly how long. That's something I have a
mental bloc about, dates of deaths. I can't remember, never. But
everybody...he had a way of cementing things. He was always kind, but he
knew...and I don't know how he knew...some of the things he did. He knew
exactly what to do, exactly how to lead these people and he certainly was
one wonderful man.
BROWN: What was the attitude of the people in there while they
were...what can you remember about how they interacted, how they helped
one another?
CRAWFORD: You mean at Pengelly?
BROWN: Yes, there, too.
CRAWFORD: Or you mean in the shop itself?
BROWN: Anything that you can remember that would be beneficial.
CRAWFORD: Well, everybody there...there was cohesion there between our
people and the people there and it was just everybody did whatever he
could possibly do, and it didn't matter how many hours it took or how
long he had to work. Everybody...there was a lady who belonged to the
emergency brigade; I think she had thirteen children. And she used to go
on; and she used to have to walk...wherever she went she walked. And I
don't recall her name. And I wasn't aware at the time that she was a
mother of so many children and she had to undergo so many hardships just
to do what she considered to be her duty.
BROWN: Isn't that thrilling!
CRAWFORD: Well, I recall my husband, before I knew him, just before I
knew him, that he was working at Chevrolet on the line for fifty cents an
hour. And he got fed up with the whole mess and took off and went to
California. Then he came back home and I met him when I was working at
AC; we were going together then. And incidentally, my husband was
cartoonist for the union paper.
BROWN: Really.
CRAWFORD: Yes.
BROWN: I'll be darned.
CRAWFORD: So we were all in on it. My sister was in on it and my husband
and her husband was in the sit-down strike, too, my sister's husband. We
were all right in the middle.
BROWN: What do you know about those tents they put up and the people
staying in that while that strike was going on? I understand the
National Guard came on. They even put up tents.
CRAWFORD: They did.
BROWN: And guns and what do you remember about that?
CRAWFORD: I remember they brought all these National Guardsmen, but they
all seemed to be young kids, little rosy-cheeked boys. And even to me
they looked like kids, and I was twenty-five. But I also remember some
confusion and I didn't see this, but I heard about a mounted policeman
beating a man until...and he died...just for being there. But I know, I
used to have every Wednesday off and I worked every other day, including
Sunday. And I went on the picket line on Wednesday.
STUDENT: Do you remember any harassment by the police?
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes.
STUDENT: In the Pengelly Building itself or in other places?
CRAWFORD: Well, I had heard, yes, but I had never encountered that
personally. But we knew darn well if push came to shove whose side they
were on. And Wolcott, Sheriff Wolcott, was wishy-washy. And thank God
that we had Frank Murphy on as governor at that time. So I don't
know...it seems to me...of course people back then were used to going
without things. The kids nowadays aren't; I don't think they could have
put up with all that stuff! I don't think they would; although when they
start pushing, taking away your livelihood and you see your kids going
hungry, they can do a lot. It has a great influence. But I certainly
hope they never have to see the days again. But the things that those
people went through. My dad and four other fellows formed the
union...four other men were the first ones. And I know; they had
meetings at our house.
BROWN: Did you...do you have any recollection of Herrlichs...Herrlich's
Drug Store has been mentioned as a place where people used to meet, there
too. Do you know anything about that?
CRAWFORD: Lorne Herrlich was very sympathetic toward the labor movement.
Lorne Herrlich was the one that hooked us and he...I'm sure he must have
realized that if it had failed, it could ruin him. But he took the
chance along with the rest. And I remember Lorne Herrlich, from the time
I was a little girl, yes. And he used to have a little drugstore, before
they had these big ones, you know. He used to have a little drugstore on
the corner of Court and Saginaw on the northeast corner.
STUDENT: Is that where that Citizens Bank is now?
CRAWFORD: That's where it is. And we used to live right...my dad had a
music studio and he used to teach violin. Oh, as a special treat they
would send me up there for an ice cream cone or something. And Mr.
Herrlich was so nice. I remember especially one time my ice cream
dropped off on the floor or something. And he mopped it up and went and
gave me another dip. Yes, he was a real nice man. Yes, I'm sure that
they did hang around his place a lot.
STUDENT: Since you were working in the building were you aware of any
other businesses that were supportive of the strike?
CRAWFORD: Not offhand, I don't. As I say, there are a lot of things that
I've forgot; I just don't remember. After all, that's a long time ago.
BROWN: But sometimes, yesterdays can seem just like today.
CRAWFORD: Yes, there are some things stand out in my mind. Two piles of
wood stand out in my mind: the two by twos and the baseball bats! I'll
never forget those, ever! And we had good times, too. It was nice; we
would go out for lunch and come back in an hour and "what's new?" I
mean, we were just as interested as anybody, you know.
BROWN: There's been a lot of talk about Communist leadings and
inspirations in that time. What do you...I know the word Communist at
that time wasn't a bad, naughty, terrible word. It was something that
meant for the workers, with the workers and, you know.
CRAWFORD: It depends on who was speaking.
BROWN: At that time also or in reference...
CRAWFORD: At any time. You can make up your mind that any time there's
something progressive going on, that is the scare tactic...that's one of
the scare tactics that you were speaking of. People are terrified of
that because of all the bad publicity we get. And that was the case
then, too. I mean, anybody who joined the union was a Communist; that's
the way they put it. Yes, and that's the way the Journal...you'd never
dream now the way the Journal writes. But that's the way it was then.
And I'm sure if it comes to that point again that it will be the same
thing, and people forget. And it will be the same thing all over again.
They will want to string you up for being a Communist if you want to do
something to protect yourself. It was that way. Sure, I'm sure there
were Communists in there; I'm sure there were. But there were a lot of
them who weren't. There were Communists, there were Socialists, there
were Democrats...no Republicans, I'm sure.
STUDENT: How many people actually worked in the office area?
CRAWFORD: Well, at first, I'm trying to remember...there were about three
of us I believe, to begin with. Olga Michelson was the first one in
there and I can't remember...Olga and myself and you know I can't
remember anyone else right at the beginning. And then there was Lorne
Herrlich's daughter-in-law got started to work there, Maureen. And I'm
trying to remember; jimminy that's hard to remember. Offhand I can't say
who else worked in there. But there were two of us to start, I think you
should say, and then they added another one or two. They never hired too
many, anyway, so the ones that were there had to work all the time.
BROWN: You say that the dues were one dollar to begin with and how
many...
CRAWFORD: Yes, that was to join and your first month's fee.
BROWN: And what were the people told that they could expect by joining
and by paying that amount?
CRAWFORD: They were told that they could expect fair play and they were
going to get a fair wage and they were going to get protection from being
fired unfairly, that they would have means of negotiations and that's
exactly what they got, plus a lot of benefits.
STUDENT: Once the strike had started was there a big influx...or a lot
more people joining up?
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes! They were lined up. When I started up at the Buick
office they were lined up for two blocks to join.
STUDENT: I know at the time the Journal was reporting a lot of people
wanted those benefits; they listed like twelve thousand people had joined
and stuff like that. More people were aligning with the union.
CRAWFORD: Of course, there were lots of them who were on the fence and
they didn't know which way to fall. But as they could...certainly even
the most blind person could see what was happening in those shops. The
bosses weren't so arrogant and they could see that it was coming their
way a little bit. And all they needed was more strength. So now it had
really worked up to something, you know.
BROWN: I guess I'm a little confused. You were at the Pengelly Building
and then you went over to the Buick. How long a stand are you talking
about here?
CRAWFORD: I was thinking this morning; I was trying to remember how long
I was at the Pengelly Building. It wasn't too many months at the
Pengelly Building.
BROWN: What year was that at the Pengelly Building? Can you remember?
CRAWFORD: Let's see, that must have been ‘37, it seems to me.
STUDENT: Did you stay there then until after the strike was over?
CRAWFORD: No, I...well, yes, I must have. Yes, yes. As I say, this is
quality in my mind, some of it.
BROWN: That's okay.
CRAWFORD: I said to my sister, "How did you remember everything?" And she
said, "I don't know; there were some things I couldn't remember because
it's been so long." And I said, "You know, if you talk to some of those
girls who were in the emergency brigade they can tell you every detail,
and they've got it right down." And she said, "Well, you know, they've
repeated it so many times."
BROWN: That's right.
CRAWFORD: So many times and that's been their life, too, the high points
of their life. It's one of the high points of mine, that's true. But I
have a tendency to forget.
BROWN: We all do.
STUDENT: You said you went to Buick after that. Where was it at Buick
when you first went?
CRAWFORD: It was located on Industrial Avenue, right off Leith Street
about two doors. It was an old storefront building there. And I
remember they used to have meetings there. And the guys would come in
and, they had...well it was jammed. And you know how men are when
they're nervous; they smoke, smoke, smoke. Well that place...you
couldn't see the back of the room no more than anything. So I finally
called up and I said, "Could we please have a ventilation fan here? I'm
dying!" (being a non-smoker too!) So they put one in and holy cats, the
smoke poured out of there; you'd think the thing was on fire! But that's
the way they were. They would get so excited and really...and they
expanded that office and put a part...no then they moved up on the corner
of McClellan and Industrial. And the corner building was a larger
building and they, by that time they could fix it up a little bit and it
looked nicer. And they had us in a cage rather out in the open.
BROWN: By then they had learned they better protect you!
CRAWFORD: Yes, but it wasn't so bad. And I wasn't worried about that. I
used to work until one in the morning and I was there by myself, and it
didn't worry me a bit.
STUDENT: Neither one of these buildings is still standing is it?
CRAWFORD: I couldn't say about the ones on Industrial; I really don't
know. I haven't been there in years and years and years. I couldn't
say.
BROWN: What was the attitude of the people? What was the feeling when
Bob Travis left? And when did he leave after he got this all whipped
together up here?
CRAWFORD: Oh, he was here quite a long time but I don't remember how long
exactly. But what was the attitude of the people...general public you
mean?
BROWN: No, no, the people involved in our movement.
CRAWFORD: Oh, I think everybody was disappointed to see him go. But he
had other things to do...other places to organize. And in order to give
strength to this union they had to organize elsewhere. And so that was
his job.
BROWN: Was the solidarity pretty well established here?
CRAWFORD: Oh yes! Yes, that was terrific; it really was a wonderful
feeling. It was like a...it was like a religious experience. Everybody
loved everybody.
BROWN: Isn't that nice...isn't that nice!
CRAWFORD: I mean they had one common enemy, you might say, and they had
come out on top. And it was really great to be in. I can remember my
dad; I remember he was beaten several times.
BROWN: Oh, no.
STUDENT: Was this during the strike or before?
CRAWFORD: Oh, after the strike. There were still some who...as I said,
when the split came...and I still can't remember what that was all about.
But nevertheless, he was beaten several times. He had his jaw broken and
his eye blackened. I remember one time he came home and he had a leech
on his eye. He had a black eye and somebody told him to put a leech on
it. And the only place he could get a leech was up on Leith Street some
place. If that wasn't the craziest thing I ever saw! The darn thing...I
don't think it helped anything.
BROWN: They used the physical violence on the people then. Did they hurt
the women also that were involved?
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes, if they got in the way.
BROWN: It didn't matter.
CRAWFORD: No. If they got in the way, I mean, you had to be tough you
might say, because you couldn't think about getting your nose broken or
whatever, because you knew you might--any time. So most of the women who
were in that thing, they had that kind of spirit, that's all.
STUDENT: You say that the women who were working for you there were
making sandwiches. Would that be at the Pengelly Building?
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes, that's mostly...I think they did have other food, too,
but...soup...they made lots of soup. In fact, I don't know who started
the soup kitchen, but somebody did and I know they had one here at Fisher
also.
STUDENT: Was that located in the Pengelly Building then?
CRAWFORD: No, they had one out here; but yes they...in the Pengelly
Building. Oh heavens yes, they had a regular assembly line on stuff like
that.
BROWN: Neat.
CRAWFORD: And they had coffee, and they had...
STUDENT: Well, did they have an extra office for that or where did they
go...right in...?
CRAWFORD: Well, there were several rooms, you know, down the hall here.
And, yes, they were doing all kinds of stuff in there.
BROWN: That place was open twenty-four hours then?
CRAWFORD: Oh yes. I don't think it ever closed; I don't believe it ever
closed. They didn't dare leave it, for one thing. Didn't dare leave it!
If they'd have left it, it wouldn't have been there the next day.
BROWN: Were you renting out of there? Or was that...
CRAWFORD: I think so; I think we were.
STUDENT: Do you have any idea who owned the building or who you paid the
rent to?
CRAWFORD: No, I don't know that part of it at all.
BROWN: That must have been a thrilling time.
CRAWFORD: It was, it really was. And I don't know, I went in there and I
thought well maybe I can help somewhere. And I think now, if I should
die tomorrow, well maybe I've done a little good. That's the way I look
at it. But it helped out a little bit.
BROWN: Certainly it did; it was the basics. It was the beginning. It
was the seed.
CRAWFORD: So when I hear people talking about the union I get mad! I get
mad. I think "what did my dad get his head busted for?" And others
like him were actually killed...for what? And these stupid jerks are
drawing the salaries and getting the benefits that they never would have
dreamed of if those fellows hadn't done these things...and the women! I
sometimes...I know the ladies in the emergency brigade and all of them
and they say, "Well we don't get enough credit!" And I don't think they
do either, really.
BROWN: Would you be willing to come and talk to the classmates in Dr.
Leighton's class and just be real and...
CRAWFORD: That's a little out of my line.
BROWN: No, they have people who have experienced this and come and just
drop in and sit there and if there are questions that the students have
then they can ask you; you were there, you know.
CRAWFORD: Oh yes.
BROWN: And that's what keeps these people educated. This is what we've
been stunted in our education because they don't want us to know about
our origins in the union. They want us to know how hard it was to fight
the fight. They don't want us to know. They have kept us away from this
information, so if you could come and just share, like you have today,
you know, whenever you have the opportunity to spread the education to
the people so they can hear. We have been totally discouraged, as a
whole body, a movement, us the workers. That's what they've done.
They've kept it away from us.
CRAWFORD: Yes, but I thought that now things were a little more open. I
got the idea that they were.
BROWN: They still discourage the educational system from teaching the
people what actually was. We still don't know; we still don't know.
Never hear about unions; never hear about...
CRAWFORD: They certainly should because I recall shortly after the UAW
was formed that the teachers' union had a heck of a struggle, too. And
there were teachers who were trying to form a union. And they were
fired.
BROWN: Right.
CRAWFORD: Same old stuff and the same old red herring.
BROWN: The corporations still have control of the educational system; so
we don't hear unless people like you do come and tell us, so that we can
understand. Things are starting to...
CRAWFORD: I think perhaps if, oh for instance if my sister came with me,
what she could...or what I couldn't remember she might remember. I'm
sure she'd be willing.
BROWN: We have...where are those fellows names that come and talk to us?
I wrote them down here; I got them. Sam Palmer comes. Do you remember
Sam Palmer? He's the...and Jack Palmer...Jack Palmer, I mean. Nellie...
CRAWFORD: Hendricks.
BROWN: Yes. Genora Johnson has been there.
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes. Well, those gals really can spout it off; I'm telling
you. I don't think they've forgotten a thing...not one thing!
BROWN: But those are the people that are coming back and telling us so
that we can know. Because you know, but we don't know.
CRAWFORD: Well, if I thought I could help, I would do it.
BROWN: Well, that's what it's all about; we want to be informed and we
want to know. And we realize you have the information of the things that
happened back there...the things that we don't know.
CRAWFORD: I just know that it's like a revolution.
BROWN: Yes, neat.
CRAWFORD: And if we ever have to have one that's the way it will be, I'm
sure. And there's all kind of subversions whenever there's an
organizational effort you can always look for subversions. And it's
always the same story; always the red herrings...always!
BROWN: What is it you mean specifically about the red herrings?
CRAWFORD: Communists! They always say “Communist.” “He's a Communist.”
And that immediately sets people against...certain people who are
uninformed especially. Immediately. And maybe the man doesn't even know
what a Communist is. But just the same, that's all they have to say.
BROWN: Yes, the label; then that's the bad guy.
CRAWFORD: For many many years that's been going on and the people don't
learn; they don't learn and they forget. It's the same with an election.
They don't take the trouble to find out anything about the candidates.
They come up...maybe they heard about them when they were being
nominated. And they don't know anything about them previous to that
time. They don't know anything about their records previous to that
time. They don't know what they thought before and that they do a quick
switch just for publicity or whatever. Like a person that may be
working...been working for years. I mean that. I don't think you step
into some large governmental office without having worked for it for
many, many years. And it takes a plan.
BROWN: I really appreciate your sharing because what we're hoping to do
is have...what did they have in Detroit?
STUDENT: It's called “Union Town.” It's a labor history tour and they
take people around on a bus to where some of the old places were, like
where they worked, where the locals were, and where the sit-downs were.
That's basically what we're working on. We'd like to get something like
that developed here in Flint.
BROWN: So that the people will know that this was one of the original
towns that started the whole deal, you know.
CRAWFORD: Certainly was.
BROWN: And we can have these...like the more you remember, you know, (and
naturally one setting like this doesn't bring everything out, as you
think about it and as some things happened, you know).
CRAWFORD: I'm sure things will come to me.
STUDENT: If you do, give us a call; we'd surely appreciate it.
BROWN: Yes, and come up to class or whatever.
CRAWFORD: Now, this is Dr. Leighton's class, you say.
BROWN: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Dr. Leighton's...well, you say that...
BROWN: Neil Leighton
CRAWFORD: You say that they're trying to keep you from learning these
things.
BROWN: Right.
CRAWFORD: So what does he teach?
BROWN: He teaches exactly what we're talking about. You know, he teaches
about the people coming in and organizing...
CRAWFORD: It's a wonder he has a job!
BROWN: You're right, you're right.
CRAWFORD: It's a wonder.
BROWN: You're right. He's a rebel.
CRAWFORD: Good for him!
BROWN: And he's getting the information to the people. And that's just
the way it is. And I've been very inspired by the class. I mean, coming
in contact with people like you and getting to know how the real issues
were and the struggles and the complexities, you know, just half makes
me...so yes, just anything that you can remember, anything that comes to
mind, anything can help with the whole project. This is going to be for
Dr. Leighton...the rest of a long period in getting all the information
that we can get. And if you have any pictures, or if you have any
friends that have some pictures, you know.
CRAWFORD: Might have some pictures of the sit-down strike. Some of them
I won't know; I hardly knew my own father when I saw him, because it was
so many years ago. And I have a picture of myself at AC. They had toy
sales at Christmas time and I have a picture of myself someplace around
here. You wouldn't recognize me either; let me tell you, there was half
as much of me. It was illustrating the dolls and they had this picture
up trying to get people to bring toys.
STUDENTS: Was this your UAW picture, then?
CRAWFORD: Yes, that was the AC local.
STUDENT: The AC local; you worked there, too. Where was that located?
CRAWFORD: Well, that was on Davison...not Davison, but Franklin Avenue.
I think there's an Ace Hardware in there now.
STUDENT: Oh really!
BROWN: Is that where it was?
CRAWFORD: Yes, but that was the worst old building you ever saw. That's
where the three guys came in and were gonna mop the ground with me.
BROWN: Oh, that's where.
CRAWFORD: Yes, and I didn't dare go in the basement; it was a most
ghastly place and it was really, oh boy...it was terrible. But that's
all we could afford, so what, you know!
STUDENT: Did you go there first, or did you go to the Buick first?
CRAWFORD: The Buick first.
STUDENT: And then you went to the AC.
CRAWFORD: After they got organized then.
BROWN: You rather showed them how to do it and what it was all
about...the other people, is that it?
CRAWFORD: Oh, I don't know; I was just there. I was the collar button to
hold the collar together, I guess. That was about it.
BROWN: That's an important thing.
CRAWFORD: I don't want to forget to give this back to you.
BROWN: Sure.
CRAWFORD: And as you say it was a thrill, a real thrill.
BROWN: What was it like after you...you said you got married and
retired...in working outside. How was it then for you and your
involvement yet with the union and so on?
CRAWFORD: Well, of course, things were pretty well settled and situated
by that time and I had my own life to live and I didn't work any place
then. And, incidentally, there was a union band.
BROWN: Oh, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Yes, this was towards the...maybe the union was a couple of
years old. And a wonderful man called Frank Lamesfelder led the band. I
was the only woman. And we had a little band going. But I don't know;
it petered out. But we used to meet every Sunday morning for rehearsals.
And I enjoyed that, because I had studied music through high school and
played at Eastern Michigan University Symphony and the symphony here, the
Flint Symphony. But...
STUDENT: Violin?
CRAWFORD: Well, I...no I started out on violin. My father taught violin.
And then when I got in high school I decided I wanted a flute. So I
played flute in these other organizations. And we had a Civic Opera here
in Flint at one time, too. This was like 1931 or 1932.
BROWN: Talking about music...Was there music involved in the union? You
said there were dances once a week at the Pengelly Building. Were there
songs and things that...?
CRAWFORD: Well, yes, there were songs to give your backbone a little
starch.
STUDENT: Where did they have the dances?
CRAWFORD: They had them there in the Pengelly Building when that...
STUDENT: You mean like you'd rent...
CRAWFORD: Usually. Well, then, later when it branched out, of course,
they had their own union halls, and some of them had their own. But this
was a combination of all...everybody from all the plants.
STUDENT: Did they have it in the bar downstairs, or did they have it like
just in the office or?
CRAWFORD: No, it was on the second floor, I think...second or third
floor. I don't recall.
BROWN: This article says there was a big hole in the ground at the
Pengelly Building...down in the bottom. It was like dug out there. Do
you remember anything about that?
CRAWFORD: Seems like I heard something about that; but I've never seen
it. I don't believe; I can't remember that. But it's a wonder we didn't
dig another one!
BROWN: Just the way you say that I think there's a lot more than meets
the eye!
CRAWFORD: Well, after you're under so much pressure you gotta let loose.
And we let loose!
BROWN: How nice.
CRAWFORD: And I remember...
STUDENT: Was the second...was that where the auditorium was where they
used to hold the big mass meetings?
CRAWFORD: Yes.
STUDENT: Is that where you held the dances, too?
CRAWFORD: Yes, they'd just clear the decks and that was it.
STUDENT: Were you by any chance there the night one member was...it was
the one night when you were in that Pengelly Building after they had
arrested some people. There was a little bar down there somewhere...
CRAWFORD: Yes, that little bar on the corner; I think they even call it
the Corner Bar or something; I'm not positive.
STUDENT: Okay, but anyway, I guess there was some kind of row in the bar
or something and they ended up arresting people and putting them in the
Flint jail. And apparently there was a big meeting at the Pengelly
Building and then they all went over to the jail and tried to get the
union through. And they would not let anybody see them...
CRAWFORD: That rings a bell. Yes, it does, but I don't recall who these
people were. When I think of Chevrolet and early days I think of Kermit
Johnson. And he used to be up there every day...up to the Pengelly
Building. Well, what those fellows used to do, they'd go around and talk
to their fellow workers and try and get them to join the union. If
they'd give them a dollar they were in the union. And they'd bring the
money to the Pengelly Building. And we'd write receipts and then they'd
send them back and give them to them the next day. So that kept us
pretty busy. It really was. And a lot of reporters were up there and
things. Everybody. He was the one who was supposed to play the big
boss.
STUDENT: Hermit was, or...
CRAWFORD: No, I say that these newspaper people...he had the scoop.
Well, that's the nature of the thing, of reporting. But if I recall,
Gallico and Lawrence had written some nasty things, if I remember...I'm
not positive of this. But I remember I got in this ruckus with Gallico.
And I wouldn't let him in to see Travis at all. Well, I couldn't let him
in, in the first place. But he was mad as a hatter; he thought I should
just let him. And I wouldn't do it. He apparently was on his way up at
that time and I know he wrote a novel about that. Yes. And about that
office, but I've never read it. I don't even know the title. I suppose
I can find it.
STUDENT: What was his name again?
CRAWFORD: Paul Gallico.
STUDENT: G a l i c o?
CRAWFORD: Yes...I don't know if there are two l's...
BROWN: You were in the process of remembering something when we were
talking about...
CRAWFORD: Yes, it's two l's.
BROWN: What book do you have there?
CRAWFORD: Let Me Not Hunger.
BROWN: Oh.
CRAWFORD: There are some of his other books; I forget.
BROWN: Does that have anything to do with...
CRAWFORD: You know I've never read that book. I don't know why; it's
been in my bookcase...bookcases for years and I still. I don't know,
there's always something else to do.
BROWN: You seem to be a very active person, probably always.
CRAWFORD: Well, I have interests.
BROWN: Yes, neat.
CRAWFORD: I have been confined to my quarters for quite some time. I
hurt my foot at one time. And then I went to a podiatrist and he
operated and then he found some other things he said. And he operated
some more and some more and some more and some more. And finally I had
so many problems with my feet it was very difficult for me to walk.
BROWN: I see. Well, if ever you want to come on up to class I would be
willing to come over here and get you and go with you and sit with you
and be with you.
CRAWFORD: My problem is I can't...I have to find a parking place near
where I am going to be because I can't walk around a lot.
BROWN: Yes, that can be arranged, too.
CRAWFORD: As I said, my sister just went to Canada and I would feel a
little more at ease, I think we both would, if we were together. And
what one couldn't remember, maybe the other one could. And I'm sure
there are going to be some things come to my mind after I've talked to
you.
BROWN: Oh, I'm sure, too. I'm sure too; you'll say, "Oh this..." If you
could just take and jot 'em down and then we can get back with you
because we're going to be filling in. If not us, specifically, as I say,
Dr. Leighton will be, so we can really get this project rounded and get
all the details that he can. And that's what this is all about.
CRAWFORD: I'd love to talk to him.
BROWN: Oh, yes; well I'll tell him so.
CRAWFORD: He sounds like a real nice guy!
BROWN: Oh yes.
STUDENT: We'll give him your name and he'll probably want to come out and
interview you, too.
BROWN: Oh, yes, he will.
CRAWFORD: Oh really?
BROWN: Yes, he's very interested in this kind of thing; this is his goal
right now...it's developing this idea.
CRAWFORD: Well, that's what we need, more people like that.
BROWN: That's right.
CRAWFORD: I mean, my father is dead and gone and a lot of those people
are...I imagine a large percentage of them are gone.
BROWN: Sure.
CRAWFORD: But that work has to go on. It just takes...keep a doing!
STUDENTS: Things changed then; I don't know whether it was at that time
or shortly after that things sort of spawned...
CRAWFORD: Oh it certainly did, oh it certainly did! They had 'em here,
they had...just little places, like restaurants, for instance.
STUDENT: Do you remember any names of them?
BROWN: Everybody realized that it could be done.
CRAWFORD: It just took one success to make them realize. Right, that we
did! But boy, people were gettin' mad and this fury that they'd been
holding inside for years...and they didn't dare let it out. Finally, it
just burst forth and there it was! And my golly, they towed the line for
them too. So...
BROWN: Absolutely fantastic; gives me the goose bumps!
CRAWFORD: Maybe when I think about it, but really I can't remember
exactly what places. But there were several small places, like Redmonds,
I think, in Owosso went on strike. I haven't been in condition for
thinking lately. I spent ninety days in that hospital bed, flat on my
back, monitored at all times. And I about scared 'em to death one night;
my heart rate went up so high.
BROWN: Well, just do jot the things down as they come to mind. Because
key things you may say, you know, will help us in having images for us so
that we can pass it on, too...from what you say because you would have a
wealth of information there that none of us would have access to.
CRAWFORD: And this is a course in labor history...these tapes.
STUDENT: We're also working on a labor history project at the school
right now.
BROWN: In fact, he has Bob Travis on tape.
CRAWFORD: Oh, that's wonderful.
BROWN: Isn't that great? Isn't that great?
STUDENT: He has Henry Clark on tape, too.
CRAWFORD: Henry Clark.
BROWN: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Oh, good; he's a wonderful man. Henry lives in Texas.
BROWN: Yes.
STUDENT: He was up here a couple of years ago.
CRAWFORD: He was up here a couple of years ago and I missed him! I went
to that picnic and you know I didn't see him. And I really wanted to see
him; he was one of the most wonderful men. There were so many of them
like that.
BROWN: You were gonna tell me something that went on at the Pengelly
Building and we switched subjects on you and I want to go back to it.
And I don't know what it was you had in mind to tell us. It was shortly
after I suggested about the hole in the basement. And you said
jokingly...remember?
CRAWFORD: I said, jokingly, "It's a wonder we didn't make another hole!"
I think that's what I said.
BROWN: Right, right.
CRAWFORD: But my one tract mind gets derailed every so often.
BROWN: Oh, mine too, mine too. It's just sometimes the casual
conversation will bring out the things that really, as I say, clear the
images best.
CRAWFORD: I don't know what I was going to say.
BROWN: What were the parties like there; did the families come to the
dances? Were the children encouraged to be around there or were they
shussed away?
CRAWFORD: Well, I was past...I didn't have any children; I wasn't married
at that time. And...but I think there were some children there. I don't
think they were...although, it seems to me that it wouldn't have been too
good a place for them because they never knew what was going to happen.
I can't really remember if there were children there, because there were
many things.
BROWN: It was cold when that strike went off, too, wasn't it. It was in
winter time, wasn't it?
CRAWFORD: Yes, it was; it was very cold. Oh, and those poor boys...those
National Guards kids...just kids. Of course then we didn't think of it
exactly that way, but in later years I thought, those poor little devils.
You know, probably their first time away from home and peach fuzz on
their faces yet. You couldn't help but feel sorry for them because they
did what they were told; and they had to do what they were told. And
maybe their dad was in there. So, although I suppose they would have
been wise enough to pick them better than that.
BROWN: Yes, people against people; that's been their divisive tactics
for...
CRAWFORD: Yes, it's that way since time immemorial.
BROWN: Yes. Well, I really appreciate this.
CRAWFORD: Oh, I've enjoyed it.
BROWN: Oh, I have too, immensely, so...
CRAWFORD: Truthfully, I was a little apprehensive because I thought, gee,
there are just so many things I can't remember. Day after day we went
through a routine and we didn't know if it was going to be interrupted or
not. But still it passes from your memory, somehow.
BROWN: But you remembered a lot; you've given us a lot of information.
CRAWFORD: Well, maybe I remembered more than I thought.
BROWN: I think so, yes.
CRAWFORD: Thrilling days!
BROWN: It's just fantastic to see your eyes light up and to feel you re-experiencing
that, you know.
CRAWFORD: Yes. I think...have you talked to Nellie Hendricks?
BROWN: Not personally, but she's come to the class.
CRAWFORD: I was going to say, "Now there's a lady who has her eyes
lighting up when she talks." Yes, she really does. And Genora Johnson
has a spark that won't quit.
BROWN: So do yours, young lady! So do yours. It seems like that was a
time when...well it would be hard for us to envision if we weren't there.
But it's like that gal that you just mentioned...what was her name? Not
Genora, the other one...
CRAWFORD: Nellie Hendricks.
BROWN: When Nellie was talking to the class she said, "We had no idea
what we actually had done. When the Baits and Banner film was finally
made, then we started realizing the importance of what we really had
done."
STUDENT: Did you find that there was no fear on the part of some; and
some got very scared. Did you come upon anything like that?
CRAWFORD: Frankly I was never intimidated by anything.
STUDENT: Good for you!
BROWN: That's probably right where you were at.
CRAWFORD: No, I was never intimidated, period. When someone tried to
intimidate me I would get mad and that's it! And because it was so
unfair; and I guess I have a sense of justice that won't quit. And, no,
I just get mad when somebody...I guess I have a short fuse on my temper.
BROWN: It seems like it served a good purpose when you scared the heck
out of those three guys with a bat!
STUDENT: Were you alone in that office?
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes, I was alone; they would never have approached me
otherwise, such yellow streaks.
BROWN: Did you see her dander gettin' up again?
CRAWFORD: Those fellows were both union men. Later one of them held a
high office in another union for many years, later. And one of them
called this house...had the unmitigated gall...a few years ago to call
this house and tried to sell my dad some shirts. Can you imagine? And
my mother really told him off. 'Cause I'll tell you, she's got some
spunk! She really told him! She's eighty-eight; she'll be eighty-nine
in February, but she hasn't lost it yet, either.
BROWN: How neat, how neat! You have one sister and that's the family?
CRAWFORD: That's the family, just the two of us. She's younger, much
younger than I am; she's seven and a half years younger than me.
BROWN: May I inquire as to your age?
CRAWFORD: Pardon?
BROWN: May I ask your age?
CRAWFORD: Sixty-eight. That's something I never try to hide; I can't
understand that at all. You know, I have an aunt who's seventy. She's
just a year and a half older than I am; her birthday comes in November,
this month. She turns seventy and she won't admit to being seventy. And
I can't understand that. I guess I'd just be nasty and send her a nice
card saying "Congratulations on arriving at the big 70!" Isn't that
terrible?
BROWN: You are a rabble rouser! I'm wondering, would you sign this and
give me your name and telephone number on here? And that way I'll have
it with the list and we can get back with you.
STUDENT: I want to give you this, too. These are our numbers in case you
remember some further information.
BROWN: Oh yes, sure.
CRAWFORD: I have yours, I guess, Kathy.
BROWN: You don't have mine. See, that's the group that's been in there.
I've gotten Nellie's and Jack's and...
CRAWFORD: Jack Palmer, oh dear, that bothers me. Bill Ginsky, my God.
BROWN: Yes, he comes and talks to the class. He comes in all the time.
STUDENT: He's the one that gave us your name, in fact.
CRAWFORD: He did; oh really.
BROWN: So we'll just have an old class reunion up there. In fact, if you
would like his number there, just call him. Take it from the list and
give him a call.
CRAWFORD: Oh, I have his number.
BROWN: You do. This is a seven then, not a nine.
CRAWFORD: No, it's a seven.
BROWN: Okay, I want to make sure I have it.
CRAWFORD: All right then, that's fine.
STUDENT: Did you know Larry Jones?
CRAWFORD: Yes.
STUDENT: Did he work there too, at Pengelly?
CRAWFORD: How did I know Larry Jones? Seems to me he's from AC, but I
can't say for sure. But I know I've seen him several times in recent
years. And I had seen him before but there were many many people who
used to come into the building and sometimes after you can't remember,
"Now where's he from?"
STUDENT: I don't really need to know. I got his name, more or less, just
in connection with the men who were bringing in dues, but...
CRAWFORD: That's what you would think, you see. But at the time, you
think, "What local is he from?" And it's a little difficult to remember
sometimes. That sounds senile, I know.
BROWN: Was it...no, no. By the time you meet so many people, I do the
same thing. So if that's senility, I have some of it myself. But I
wanted to know what was the heating conditions in the Pengelly Building,
also? Was it warm?
CRAWFORD: It was pretty hot most of the time. I think they weren't too
bad. I can't recall having been cold.
STUDENT: Were there many other offices located in there? I think the
third floor was where your offices were.
CRAWFORD: Yes, I think there were some...there were other offices, I
think. Well, then, we scattered out of it and oh, they started printing
the union newspaper up there.
BROWN: Oh, did they?
CRAWFORD: Yes, Bruce...
STUDENT: How long did the UAW stay in the Pengelly Building? Until it
was it torn down or...?
CRAWFORD: Oh, no, no. No, they weren't there that long. They stayed
there until the locals were well established. Each of the separate
locals were established. And then it was useless to keep the Pengelly
Building open. It took quite awhile.
BROWN: That union paper, now...you said who was on that? Who started
that, do you remember? What was it a little press...printing press
thing?
CRAWFORD: Just a little deal and as I recall, some of the time it was
even mimeographed.
BROWN: Did they use that for the handbills to get the information to the
people?
CRAWFORD: Yes, yes, and to stir up a little thing...my husband was the
one who invented the cartoon of the Goonies.
BROWN: Really.
CRAWFORD: He didn't want it to look too much like the Klan.
STUDENT: What was your husband's name?
CRAWFORD: Clair Crawford. He didn't want it to look too much like the
Klan, so he didn't put any point on the top. But it was a faceless thing
and a big nose hanging over a fence. I recall that much, and just a
little old round head.
BROWN: Do you have any of that...of those?
CRAWFORD: No, I didn't...at the time, I, of course never, never. I don't
think I do anyway. I could look in some of his things and see. But I
doubt it very much. But they were funny; they were funny. And I
remember one time this was when the union was...oh, it must have been
1939...around 1939 sometime...that he had the flu and he could not get
out of bed. But he had a deadline to meet and he sat up in bed and drew
his cartoons and we delivered them for him.
BROWN: The dedication to the cause went on.
CRAWFORD: Well, his dad was a good union man, too. He worked at
Chevrolet and he used to come down to the Pengelly Building, too. And I
remember one time...it was the same fellow...one of the same fellows that
was gonna beat me at the AC said, "There's Louise Green's boy friend; get
him!" And my husband was a small man; he was five, six if he stretched.
And but he was rough; but they didn't do one thing to him. Believe me,
they didn't. So he was in it, too, just because he was going with me.
BROWN: That's thrilling, that's thrilling.
CRAWFORD: Well, my husband was the only...well one of his brothers was
sort of interested but not anything like my husband was.
BROWN: But they had all kinds of parties on the weekends then, to let off
the steam, the dances and so on.
CRAWFORD: Yes, they did. It seems like...this far away it seems that
they had quite a few. And, of course maybe there weren't as many as it
seems like, somehow from here. But...
BROWN: It was a good time was had by all to ventilate this steam anyway,
and the pressure.
CRAWFORD: That's right, that's right.
STUDENT: You said that they never were able to leave that office. Do you
know what happened at the parade. I wondered if somebody had to stay in
the office, or if everybody just went to it?
CRAWFORD: I suppose they did; I'm not sure. I imagine so. They had a
guard or two guards or half a dozen or whatever. I don't know. But I'm
sure that they would never have been able to leave that unguarded...ever,
because it would have been flat. Somebody would have burned it down;
something would have happened to it.
STUDENT: Was Bob Travis just a regular officer? I got the idea that the
Reuthers were more or less situated in Detroit...
CRAWFORD: Well, they were. They were; they went back and forth. And I
recall that they had terrible times getting apartments for them. Because
the minute these landlords would find out who they were...no, nothing
available, if not an outright tongue lashing. And I remember the Hardy
Apartments. And I think Bob Travis and his wife got an apartment there.
That was his first wife, Margaret.
STUDENT: Where were the Hardy Apartments?
CRAWFORD: Seems to me they were on Clifford Street, just a couple blocks
over. And I think they were. That name comes to me and also The Stone
Apartments, on First Street. A lot of the places they'd have to move in
there without ever telling them who they were...
STUDENT: But the Stone and Hardy were where they were living then.
BROWN: You mentioned Margaret, his first wife. Was she involved in this
also, this movement with Bob? Did you meet her; do you know?
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes, I met her; she died...I don't know exactly when
because they went back to Toledo. Then they moved around here and there
with those activities.
BROWN: Then she was involved.
CRAWFORD: She was involved inasmuch as she was his wife. And I don't
know if she was involved as much as some of the rest. But she wasn't a
well woman, anyway; her health was bad. She died of cancer, I believe.
And then I don't know how long it was after that he remarried and his
second wife's name was Ellen.
BROWN: Were you there when they had this big walk with the people? They
were talking about it in the class. The people all started walking
together when the strike was just starting. Do you remember when they
all banded together and they walked down to the park and they were all in
unity, walking together? I remember them saying they were walking
together.
CRAWFORD: What park? That must have been Willson Park or...
BROWN: It was either just before the strike when they were showing the
solidarity of the people. And this one woman broke the picket line or
broke the line that the guard had...and I'm a bit fuzzy about that.
CRAWFORD: Oh, yes, it was well into the strike by that time.
BROWN: Oh, I see. Were you involved in that at all?
CRAWFORD: No, I was minding my own business in the Pengelly Building.
BROWN: You had your own fort to hold down!
CRAWFORD: Except on Wednesdays. But yes, I remember them talking about
that. There were a lot of ladies who were in the emergency brigade. But
oh, yes, those women had guts. I mean they had to have!
STUDENT: I was impressed! You think about that today and really
can't...it's hard to imagine myself really getting up that much courage
to really stand up to something.
CRAWFORD: I've been always pretty good at that.
STUDENT: I surely admire everybody who helped with it.
CRAWFORD: I know a lot of women can't imagine themselves in that
situation, but something has to be done; somebody has to do it.
BROWN: Women are the backbone actually; when push comes to shove, the
women get out and get it on. When the war was on and the women worked in
the factories, they weren't supposed to be in factories, so they were
told. My mother was in the factory in Lansing.
CRAWFORD: No, but it was all right to put them in the field and act like
a plow horse.
BROWN: Right.
CRAWFORD: So what's the difference?
BROWN: Yes, I agree, I agree. You say you were just the person that kept
the button on the collar. I have a good inclination you did a lot more
than just that, lady.
CRAWFORD: Well, we had...we used to go home and cook for our guests. And
then sometimes if we were delayed, they would cook for us. And we became
fast friends. And this one person I saw last summer for the first time;
I received a letter from him. I hadn't seen him for forty-two years.
And two years ago I saw a friend of his and I asked about him. And he
took my name and address and it never dawned on me I'd ever hear from
this man...the one who did the laundry. And finally I got this letter.
And he said, "It's nice to be remembered after forty-two years." And so
he told me about how he'd been married and now he's into his second
marriage; his first wife died..and some of the things which had happened
to him. And I was so tickled to hear from him. He was such a nice
fellow. I was so tickled about it that I called him. And I talked to
his wife, whom I've never met, and I talked to him. And then I invited
them to come up and stay here this past summer when they had this picnic
at Flushing Park where they have it every year. And I said they would be
welcome to come and stay. I have an extra bedroom and they would be
welcome to come and stay. And I was quite disappointed when they didn't.
He came, but his wife didn't.
STUDENT: Where is he located?
CRAWFORD: Toledo. But I got to talk to him anyway.
BROWN: What do you say...picnic at Flushing Park?
CRAWFORD: Well, that's the UAW picnic that they have every year for the
retirees.
BROWN: O, I see. Get together and really hash out the old things...the
old days.
CRAWFORD: Yes, it's a potluck, sort of set up. And the nice part is to
talk to your friends that you haven't seen in so many years.
BROWN: Right.
CRAWFORD: There's always those old standbys you can always depend...
they're gonna be there. But as you mentioned Henry Clark, I was so
disappointed when I didn't get to see him. Because when I worked at the
Buick I felt safe when Henry was around, somehow. He was a great fellow,
a very nice man.
BROWN: Well, I have to leave; I have a five o'clock. But I really have
appreciated your time.
CRAWFORD: I have enjoyed it, every minute, really. I've wanted to have
something to serve you.
BROWN: Oh, no, I just like it this way; it's more relaxing.
CRAWFORD: Well, anyway that's one of my hobbies...my Michigan chow I
cook. Chinese, yech!
BROWN: Well, I really have appreciated this and we will be back in
contact and I will tell Dr. Leighton that you would be interested in
talking to him, because he would love it also.
CRAWFORD: That's fine, I certainly would. I'll put this in my little red
book. I gotta get a new little book; the one I have is getting a little
dog-eared.
BROWN: Really appreciate your re-living the experiences and it is really
going to mean more of an insight.
CRAWFORD: Well, I'm easily thrilled. For instance the other day I got a
beautiful...I haven't looked at it today.
BROWN: Oh, isn't that gorgeous?
CRAWFORD: I bought this last year and it just was a little tiny thing
like this but it only has...
STUDENT: What's it called?
CRAWFORD: It's a Christmas cactus. And I thought, well gee, it's gonna
have pretties all over. But no but that one...of course it's fading.
Gee, I'm gonna get me some more.
BROWN: I do the same thing.
CRAWFORD: This poor thing has been so neglected since I have been in the
hospital. Look at my ferns dying.
BROWN: Oh, you will bring them back.
STUDENT: What's this tree you have out front?
CRAWFORD: That's a magnolia tree. And that is the most magnificent thing
in the spring you have ever seen.
STUDENT: Are those the ones with the big white flowers?
CRAWFORD: They are pink. And those are so thick, they're like leather,
the petals. And the leaves come on and they're big shiny leaves and that
makes the most dense shade, lovely shade. And my dad planted that years
ago.
STUDENT: Is this where you grew up?
CRAWFORD: No, my folks made this small house when my father was thinking
about retiring. And he was working still at Fisher Body and he said I
can walk to and from work. And he used to do that to get his exercise
and straighten out his spine at night. He used to run home. My dad was
a very active man. He did lapidary work and oh, he polished star rubies
and he did facets; the last thing he did before he died he was doing
faceting.
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