King, Vincent P., 1915-1998

              Vincent King
April 3, i980
Interviewed by Kenneth West
Ken West: Mr. King, your brother who I interviewed earlier in the
week said that you were born in Chesening, Michigan, is
that right?
Vincent King: I was born in Merrill, Michigan.
KW: You were born in Merrill, you weren't born the same place
as your brother.
VK: I was born later and I was born in Merrill, Michigan.
KW: I see.
VK: I think my oldest brother and Irv were born in Chesaning
but I was born in Merrill, Michigan.
KW: I see. And, what year was that that you were born in?
VK: 1915, November 5.
KW: 1915. Did you go to local schools then?
VK: I went to Sacred Heart School in Merrill up to the third
grade and then we moved to Owosso.
KW: I see. Oh, you were in Owosso then for awhile. .
VK: Yeah, for about 8 years and then we come to Flint.
KW: What time did you come to Flint then?
VK: In '33.
KW: In '33.
VK: I went to the last half of year of high school at st.
Mike's and graduated in '34.
KW: I see, so you did graduate from high school then.
VK: Yeah.
KW: From St. Mike's. What brought you to Flint then in '33?
VK: My dad got a job at the Arfic. See, it was during the
f="D,_>,'t"'°~'Cl:-'4'~ ..
depression and they closed down the Counter ·J?;ttm:~- and Supply
c Company and he was lucky enough to get a job at the .Artie
!\
Dairy. They had some strings or something, you know, the
two knew each other, the two companys knew each other. They
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Page 2
VK! brought him over •.
KW: Good. So he had been working then in counter supply and in
the dairy business.
VK: He was out of work for about a week or two though before
he was transferred over.
KW: I see. But, he was one of the lucky ones then to have a
job.
VK: Jeah, he was really tickled about it.
KW: Did you get into the shops then soon after you got out of
high school?
VK: No, I worked for a trucking company, Southern Michigan, and
then they went broke and sold out to Eastern Michigan and
I went with Eastern Michigan. so, I worked for a trucking
company for about a year and a half before I went into
Fisher Body.
KW: Oh, I see. So you worked for Eastern Michigan. Was that
the same company that operated the buses then in Flint?
VK: Yes, the trucking part was in back of the bus station. The
building went on · back. I think that they have taken
part of the building down now.
KW: I see. So you went into the shops then in when?
VK: In '35, December 3, '35.
KW: '35. And, how did you get that job?
VK: I just went out and put in an application. My brother was
already working there and I wasn't satisfied with the job
that I had with the trucking company. The way it en~ up
towards the last they were giving me 4 hours off in the
middle of the night. I would work 4 hours, have 4 hours off,
and then work 4 hours.
KW: Oh, so the conditions in the shops from your point of view
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KW: would be better.
VK: Better then that.
KW: Did the wages promise to be better, too?
VK: Yes, I was getting 42¢ an hour at the trucking company and
I hired in at Fisher at 50¢ an hour.
KW: What did you hire in as, what did you do then when you
first hired in'
VK: I- was a - well, they called me a conveyor operator but what
I was was pushing bodies around. See, they were on dolly
wheels. They would come off one line and I would turn 'em
around and put them on another line.
KW: I see. Now it wasn't automated, did they later get that job
automated?
VK: Most of the places in the shop have them so they go right
on across, they don't •••
KW: But at that time and for awhile after the strike •••
VK: Every little ways there would be a break in the line and
you would have to take it off of one line and put it on
another.
KW: Were you working at that job then at the time of the strike?
VK: I was, yes.
KW: I see. Was that heavy work then?
VK: Yeah, it was pretty heavy, we were pushing those bodies
around.
KW: You weren't on the line so you weren't subject to really the
speed of the line but did you have to keep going pretty well~
VK: Yeah, well then we had to - it was going into the paint and
we had a tack rag that had some kind of chemical on it and
we would wipe the dust off of the job too.
KW: Oh, I see.
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Page 4
VK: I was there alone for awhile and then I just trucked them,
well then they brought another guy down there with me and
the two of us would truck 'em and we would wipe off the
dust off the top.
KW: You would wipe the dust off of the parts then as you
dropped them. That was in the paint - you were in the paint
department then?
VK: Yeah, I was in the paint department, that's where I hired
in.
KW: I see, then you must have known some of the people in the
paint department fairly well. Did you know the Spohn
brothers?
VK: I knew the Spohn brothers.
KW: And Jerry .Aldred?
VK: Yeah, Earl Aldred, Jerry's brother, is a pretty good friend
of mine. He worked right on that same job there, Earl did.
KW: I see. He's not still alive, is he?
VK: No, Earl died here a few years back. He was not a very
old man when he died.
KW: Were you paid on that job straight time then, it couldn't
very well be piece work, could it?
VK: No, it wasn't piece work, no.
KW: A straight 50¢?
VK: 50¢ an hour, yeah.
KW: You presumably had a little more freedom, did you, on the
job then, coming and going? You were more mobile, I guess,
getting around, weren't you?
VK: Well, there was a job that would come off about every minute,
a little over a minute. You had to be right there to catch
it and turn it around. You could go to the drinking fountait
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VK: and like that but you couldn't take off from the shop or
anything.
KW: No, you were pretty well tied then to the speed of the line
too. Did you have a foreman then that you were responsible
to?
VK: Yeah, Walt Jerome and then there was - oh shoot, he had a
straw boss, Bob Howicks. Bob played basketball in this AAA,
you know. You might have heard of him.
KW: I don•t believe that I have. What was your relationship
with your foreman? Did you get along pretty well or did
you have s©me trouble?
VK: Yeah, we got along with him alright.
KW: Because your brother mentioned that he had some - one
difficulty at least with his foreman. They didn't get
along too well.
VK: Well see, they would push him more then they would us
because he was on like piece work or stuff like that and
they would try to get all they could. Wel~, with me why . there was no way that they could really hurry me that much.
KW: So you say then that yCUl.r relationship with your particular
foreman was pretty good.
VK: Yeah, I never had no trouble with him.
KW: Since you worked in the paint department you must have had
a chance to observe some of the OIDnditions under which the
\\...//.\
sprayers and that operated. Can you tell me how worked?
l\
VK: Yeah. It was kind of dirty and they did have like a water
system that was supposed to take away alot of the fumes but
still you had to wear a cheesecloth across your nose and
everything and it wasn't considered too healthy to be a
sprayer. Well, they are alot better now with the system
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VK: that they got with the fans and everything.
KW: Oh yes. I talked with Jimmy Spohn and he indicated that
things had improved.
VK: Oh, did you, oh.
KW: Yeah. What opinion did you have of Jimmy Spohn and the
Spohn brothers?
VK: He was a scrapper. They were all scrappers but he was a
- he was kind of a - oh, he would keep things stirred up
pretty much.
KW: What was your opinion of Jerry .Aldred? He, I gather, was
something.
VK: He was smart. The Spohns were smart but, you know, in a
.Q.,
little different way, he can man~uver and like that. But,
Jerry I think he knew everything that was going in the union,
KW: I see. Now, you came there then in 1935. Was there talk
of the union at that time?
VK: No, it was a couple months after that I think. I didn't
hear anything when I first come in.
KW: I see. Did you talk on the job at all about the union?
VK: Yeah. Well, I was only 20 years old, see, and so Spohn,
I think it was Spohn or one of them that come up to me, and
they said - I told them that I wanted to learn spray because
it paid more money. .And, they told me that if I wanted to
spray I would have to get into the union.
KW: Oh they did.
VK: If I wanted to have them break me in, then I would have to
join the union or they weren't gonna help me. I said, nyou
don't need to threaten me, I'll be glad to get into the
union."'
KW: The paint department was pretty well organized, wasn't it
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VK: Yes, yes, they done a - they had meetings or something that
I hadn't known about, see.
KW: Well, they apparently had been involved, at least from
Jimmy's account, in strikes earlier, in 1930 and then
again in 1934.
VK: Yeah, my brother told me that but that was with Green,
wasn't it or a different •••
KW: Yes, that was William Green, they were AF of L then in 134.
(telephone rings, tape shuts off)
We were talking about the recollections of these earlier
strikes. Yeah, they did have the AF of L.
VK: Yeah, they lost out in the, I think that it was with
Green, they lost out. Of course I wasn't there then.
KW: Did people talk at all to you about that earlier troubles?
VK: I never heard much about that.
KW: But the Spohn's then pushed you into joining the union.
Did you then join the union?
VK: Yes. We went over to the - let's see, I think we went
down to the· Pengally Building, the old Pengally Building
and signed up there. I told them that they didn't need to
push me that I was glad to get in it because, you know,
after working in Southern Michigan and the working oo ndi tions
there and then in the shop I seen where if you didn't do
just like they told yo11, why you were out, see.
KW: What do you think were the main reasons then why people
would join the union, looking back on it now?
VK: Well, there were different reasons. One thing was on the
line there was speed ups, you know. And seniority, your
job rights.
a table and I
go around and
When I first went
wasnct allowed to
if they needed my
in there we would meet at
ring in at all. They would
help or needed me to work
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Page 8
VK: they would let me ring in. If they wouldn~they would
send me home.
KW: So when you came in to work you didn't know if you would.
VK: I didn't get paid at all until - I mean, the foreman would
OK the time I came in, he would write on there the time
that I came in. But, I may set there for an hour until
they found out if they had a job open for me. See, that
was when I first hired in.
KW: And you got nothing for that time.
VK: And if they sent me home I didn't get anything.
KW: Now, that changed soon after the union came in.
VK: Oh yeah.
KW: Did you notice that things were any more difficult on the
line or where you worked for people who were older? You
were 20 and were young and could keep up but did you notice
that the older people had trouble?
VK: Well, yes. After the union come in they brought manpower
in so they would slow it down in quite a few places so
you wouldn't have to work quite so fast.
KW: You didn't have a relief man on your job then, did you?
VK: No. I don't remember •••
KW: Did they get relief men on your particular job later, after
the union came in?
VK: No, it seemed like it was awhile before - after the strike
before they got relief men, if I'm not mistaken. I don't
remember just what the relief - how I was relieved then.
KW: At any rate, you joined the union. Do you remember what
mo~th it would have been then? Early '36, I guess, it
would have been.
VK: Yeah, it must have been '36 because I hired in in '35. The
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VK: strike was New Years of '36 and '37.
KW: Yes, that's right. Had you been a member of the union for
a while then before the strike came?
\JX: Yes, I had. The strike was on our night shift because I
remember as soon as they struck they told us to all go over
- they had a cafeteria then, it's part of the body shop
now. There was a cafeteria in the south unit and they
marched us all over there and Bud Simons and I think Jerry
Aldred and some of the others got up in the - there was a
6 (,.,, #~(" '-.·% boxing ring set up. Do you remember the Golden Gecre!f"'that
they had there?
KW: Oh yes.
VK: Well, they had that ring set up and they got up in the ring
and they told us that the women would have"to get out. The
~x
women booed. They said that we would"" be allowed to run all
over the shop, we would be confined to a certain area. We
could come and go but first they wanted to let us know what
it was all about and what was going on and everything like
that.
KW: Right. You were on the shift then at the time that the
strike was called, you were working. Do you recall just
what happened when you were working'
VK: Yes I was. Yes, it was all prearranged and I don't remember
if it was 9 or 10:GG o'clock but I think thai. it was around
then. They just walked over and they pushed the button that
shut the line down.
KW: Who did that?
VK: Well, some of the guys that I was working with. I didn't
really see them.
KW: Did you have premonition then that a strike was coming? Did
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Page 10
KW: you know that one was brewing?
VK: Not right up until that night, I didn't know it.
KW: In other words, as a younger man you weren't in on it.
VK: I didn't care that much, no. See, I didn't have the fears
of the older guys with families and like that. I didn't
have that fear because I was staying with my folks and
everything.
KW: Right. Did you think that there would be a strike? Was
there talk about a strike then?
VK: Yeah, there was talk about a sit-down strike.
KW: There was talk about a sit-down. Now, that interests me
because the earlier strikes had always been conducted as
a walk-out strike.
VK: Well, I guess that the guys realized that if they had a
walk-out strike that the company wmuld break it, they would
get people back in that would work. The same as they did
when the tv.o got to fighting, the AF of' L arid the CIO. My
brother, he was with the CIO and I was the AF of L.
KW: That must have been interesting.
VK: But, I never got in the scrapes that some of them did and
he didn't either. But, I remember that we struck once and
the CIO didn't go along with it. A guy that I worked with,
he was driving an old touring car and he was kind of scared
coming in. See, he was supposed to be striking with us,
he was AF of L. He came wheeling into the parking lot and
slammed right in the back end of somebody. The dust come
flying off of his car and the dirt and everything.
KW: Did you have any arguments then with your brother over the
the different positions.
VK: No, I alway tried to avoid it.
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KW: stand it because the paint department tended to go AF of L,
didn't they?
VK: They did and where he was they went CIO.
KW: Right. What did you think were the issues between the two
groups? Homer Martin, I guess, was the man who was your
leader, wasn't he, that faction?
VK: Yeah, I think that he was. But, as I look back on it I
think it was really as it is today. It's politics is what
it is, the jobs within the union. Like you got your Rank
and File and, you know, 2 or 3 factions. Now, one wants
to lead the union or one wants to get the votes to get into
office •••
KW: Right. There was a factional dispute then just among the
leaders.
VK: Yeah, I think thats mostly what it was.
KW: Was there any feeling that the CIO was more left wing, that
there were alot of communists and reds in the CIO?
VK: I always felt and everybody said - Bud Simons was a leader
during the strike and I always felt that he was a communist.
KW: I see.
VK: And, everybody seemed to think so. That was my - I really
didn't want the CIO. It wasn't just faction, part because
I thought it was communist.
KW: And it mattered to you that they were.
VK: Yeah.
KW: Well, getting back to the period of the strike itself, did
you have a job then assigned to you during the period of
the sit-dovm? A certain thing that you were supposed to
do?
VK: Right at first I didn't, it was to'G(' just stay in there but
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Page 12
VK: then after awhile I was a runner from the kitchen across
the street. You know, they cooked food across at the old
union hall across the street, they had some women there.
I was a runner carrying messages back and forth. I didn't
even know what the messages were, they put them in an
envelope.
KW: Oh, you just ran the messages back and forth. You didn't
·run any food then?
VK: No, I didn't, no. They brought that over in pickup trucks,
I guess, and stuff like that.
KW: I see. What restaurant was that, do you remember the name?
VK:· It wasn't a restaurant, it was just the old union hall.
KW: Oh, they cooked in the old union hall. Did the people eat
then in the - they didn't eat in the union hall?
VK: They brought it over to the shop.
KW: They brought it all over to the shop.
VK: And, see, we had a cafeteria right down stairs here, right
below the area that we wre supposed to stay in. See, it
was right in the far north end there and they shut the doors
there and everything and we were supposed to stay right in
that area. But, some guys went through the shop to make
sure that people wasn't in there stealing and carrying on
and stuff and destroying stuff.
KW: It was patrolled. But, you did eat in the cafeteria then?
VK: Yeah.
KW: Was ther e any cooking done in the cafeteria?
VK: I don't think so, I don't know. I didn't go down there
very much, just to eat. I thought that it was all brought
in.
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KW: Did you get breakfast at all?
VK: Yeah, there was coffee there.
KW: Did they make the coffee there? The reason that I ask is
I got a report - a conflicting report from somebody who
said that he worked in the kitchen. He said that they
even had scrambled eggs and bacon and that cooked apparently
in the cafeteria.
VK: Well, I never got any. As far as I know it all come from
across the street.
KW: What sort of food was it? Was it pretty good variety or -
your brother, I think, indicated that there was alot of •••
VK: beans and stuff like that, yeah, it was nothing fancy, I'll
tell you that.
KW: But you di dn t t go hungry?
VK: No, no we didn't go hungry.
KW: Did cnybody ever try to interfere with you when you went
from the plant over to the union hall?
VK: No they didn't.
KW: What was the morale of the guys in the shop then?
VK: Well, at first, of course, they were all excited about it
and everything but then as it dragged on it got awful
monotonous. It got so some Sundays there it seemed like­there
wasn't 20 or 30 people in there.
KW: Worse on weekends then, Saturdays and Sundays?
VK~ It was and like Spohn and them, they had families. See,
they would say, 1~ing you ain't got anybody, you stay in
here. I got to go home to my family .v
KW: Jimmy said he was in for the whole time$
VK: He was in and out but he was there.
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KW: Did you go home then at times?
VK: I only went out on Sundays and I would stay a few hours and
then I would come back. I don't remember if I stayed one
night out of the •••
KW: Oh, so you were there. You stayed in most of the time at ·
night. What did you do then to keep yourself amused?
VK: Oh, it was boring. We read a bunch of these here pamphlets
and made a blackjack.
KW: Oh, you were reading pamphlets then. What sort of pamphlets,
do you remember? Somebody said that they picked up one
called the Prol£tarian News. Were there some left wing, you
know, socialistic pamphlets?
VK: I never seen it. I think somebody said that there was some­body
spreading stuff like that in there. Of course, some­thing
like that is always a good target.
KW: Yes. Did you have a kangaroo court then?
VK: They did but they acted like they didn't want to get anybody
mad because they found somebody moving around there were they
weren't suppose to. And they kangaroo courted them and they
had them do something silly that didn't amount to nothing.
They didn't do nothing to them.
KW: Apparently there were no women allowed in.
VK: .No.
KW: And no liquoreither, I guess.
VK: No, I never seen anybody drinking in there.
KW: Nobody was drinking?
VK: No sir, I never seen anybody drinking at all in there.
KW: Now, you did make, as you say, blackjacks and you had other
weapons so you were ready for an attack.
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Page 15
VK: Yeah, they had a bunch of hinges piled up there. I never
had to use them.
KW: Did you make a blackjack then?
VK: Yeah, I did. It was - all I did ·was take a piece of lead
and - it was a simple thing - and then wrap tape around
it and then we would get an old piece of trim. Yruwould
drive a nail in and stick a razor blade inside and pull it
across the blade. It made your strips all. the same size
and then you would weave it. There was alot of that going
on just for souvenirs.
KW: Sure. Did anyone have any guns in the plant?
VK: No, I never seen any guns.
KW: Your brother, I think, referred to somebody who came in
from outside •••
VK: I heard him say something about that and I didn't ••••
KW: that had guns but that wasn't allowed either was it?
VK: No, no.
KW: Now the leadership in the plant interests me a bit. You
say you ran messages from the guys in the plant over. Who
would it be that would give you these messages then?
VK: Well, just some of the guys that were in the strike that
were in the kitchen. Jimmy Spohn when he was around, he
would run them part of the time or he would give me a
message to take over when he was there. I don't know where
all he was getting them.
KW: Were they personal messages only for the guys in the plant
VK: I think it was union business, I think it was concerning
the food and stuff like that. I don't know though~, it
t
~uld seem like the menu would be made up - I don't know
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Page 16
VK: what they were.
KW: Did you have a strike card then?
VK: I did and I lost it. I had it punched just full.
KW: When would it be punched, after you did your duty, ran
your duty shift?
VK: It was at the end of the week, I think, that they punched
them for us. I don't remember.
KW: /Did you have to have a pass to get out and get back in to
the plant?
VK: No, but lots of time i.f there wasn't many in there they
would try to give you a little lip service and talk you
into staying in there.
KW: This interests me because I've heard,. again you get the
15 reports, some ·say that some guys may have been held in
against their will. Was that true?
VK: Not really against their will. They never really stopped
anybody but if they seen there was just a few people left,
and everybody was going out, like Sunday, why they would
try to talk you out of going because there wouldn't be
nobody in there.
KW: How low did the numbers get, do you remember how low they
got?
VK: I don't know because, see, well, it was a small area but
still it would be hard to tell because there was guys
sleeping in bodies.
KW: Did they take roll at all?
VK: No.
KW: They didn't, they didn't try to take attendance?
VK:
11
No, they never did.
KW: L!ere there times when there were alot of people in there?
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Page 17
KW: I know sometimes it got low but sometimes they must have
had alot of people in there.
VK: They probably told you this already but there was a time
when the sheriff and them were suppose to come out and
put us out.
KW: I heard that maybe that was the night that they had the
battle of the running bulls over at Fisher II when the
police did try to raid them. And then there was fear at
Fisher I that they might come over there.
VK: People started flocking out there in that place and coming
inside, it was just jam packed in there.
KW: Did they come from out of town, too?
VK: I don't know but I thought that it was mostly local people.
KW: Did you see some of the leaders out there~ I think that
you brother mentioned that the Ruethers were there and
Mortimer and Travis.
VK: Yeah all of them. I would see them and I knew they were
leaders but I didn't pay that much attention to it. I
didn't connect their names with their faces and like that.
I knew there was Travis and of course Ruether, I knew him.
KW: Right, and Victor and Roy. Did you know the sound car out
there?
VK: Yeah, we used to hear that every once in awhile.
KW: What would the sound car tell you guys?
VK: Mostly it was to cheer you up, not to give up that you
were gonna win and all that.
KW: Right. But there was fear that night of the running bulls
that the police was gonna •••
VK: Yeah, they thought that maybe they were coming in then but
then after awhile people were just jamming the streets
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Page 18
VK: outside so we didn't have no worry about them coming in
there then.
KW: No, you would have been pretty well prepared. But after
that they left again, didn't they and the numbers would
get down.
VK: Yeah, it would go right down. Of course there was an
awful lot of people that went right on out and didn't come
back at all, see. But I suppose, you know, that they were
satisfied with that because they would have had more people
then they would have wanted to feed and they would have
had more people then they could have controlled.
KW: Right, right. How was your own morale? Did you figure
that you were gonna win, you were in there?
VK: Yeah, I thought that we would win because, see, we didn't
have to worry about them taking the plant. We already had
the plant and we knew that the police would either have to
order us out or General Motors would have to get in, one
or the other, see.
KW: Were you prepared to fight then if they did come in?
VK: Yeah, I would.
KW: You were. Do you think that most of the men would have
fought if the cops would have tried to come in?
VK: Yeah, they wrnld have. Back then and at that age we didn't
have much sense.
KW: You said that age, now you were younger and single.
VK: I was 21.
KW: Were you typical of the guys in there or would you say that
most of them were family people? Now the Spahn's were
older, of course.
VK: They had all ages in there.
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Page 19
KW; Did you associate much with your brother when he was in
there?
VK: No, I never - I don't know what he was doing there if he
come in there that much. He was in there off and on but
I didn't see him in there that much. I don't think that
he was in there as much as I was.
KW: I think that he did indicate that he did get out.
VK: Yeah, I think that he went to the union hall and all around
like that. There was patrols that went along the outside
of the shop, too, you know there was cars that went around
the outside. I wouldn't be surprised if he was with them
part of the time, too.
KW: Well, your job was strictly just going as a messenger. You
didn't accompany patrols then around the building?
VK: No, I didn't. I just stayed right in there. And, I wasn't
a messenger until the last 2 or 3 weeks. At first I just
stayed in there.
KW: Not everybody then had a specific job assigned to them?
VK: No, most everybody didn't have a job, they just wanted to
keep you in there. I don't think that they depended too
much on us, the few that were in there. I think that if
trouble broke out they would have got to a phone and called
guys back in there in a hurry.
KW: There were people, in other words, on the outside that were
hanging around the union hall then and were ready to come
back.
VK: Yeah, and some cars that went around and around. You know,
they would go down Saginaw and cross over and back up the
back streets.
KW: Right. According to your brother, you had pretty good
Vincent King
Page 20
TAPE I, SIDE II
KW: backing from home, your dad and your mether were not
opposed to it at all.
VK: Yeah.
KW: Did they ever say anything to you, you know, when you came
home?
VK: My dad, when the strike come out:, - oh, when they were
having the trouble at Chevrolet, I think@
KW: Yeah, that was a little later in the strike, Chevrolet 4.
VK: And he thought it was Fisher and he started downtown walking
and he got down and he found out that it was over to
Chevrolet and he was all hepped up and he stopped for a
beer. He was an older man, he wasn't as old as I am but
he went in there and somebody said something about how
they ought to drag •••
TAPE I, SIDE II
KW:
VK:
He got in a fight then. Was he a union man then?
No, he worked at the Artie Dairy and later they were
"
or gen izing a union there but he never got into the union
because he was sick and the company was letting him work
like 4 or 5 hours whenever he could come in so he couldn't
really ever belong to the union because they were giving
him a preference there.
KW: I see. But he was sympathetic to you?
VK: Oh, he was, yeah.
KW: Was your mother then sympathetic too?
VK: Well, I don't know, I don't think she cared that much. She
was just concerned about whether I got hurt or not.
KJJV: Right. But with your dad working you didn't have trouble
with an income because you and your brother both didn't
have incomes.
Vincent King
Page 21
VK: No, I could go home. Baek then, see, when I first hired
in we would like work say 7 or 8 months or 9 months and
then I V\OUld get laid off, see, without much seniority.
It ain'' t like it is now. The companys would go back and
they would make all of the cars they possibly could and
then they would cut production right down and lay off. See,
that was a big reason for your union there too. When they
would do that I would go home and live off of my folks.
KW: But you didn't have any particular trouble then making ends
meet during the strike then.
VK: No, no I didn't because my dad was working and I lived with
my folks, you know. I had no family.
KW: Right. Did you ever run into any people that were hostile
to the union. There were a number of people who were
organized apparently and were called the Flint Alliance, a
back to work movement. Did you ever run into of those.
VK: I heard that they were trying to start a back to work
movement but I never met any of them. Of course I talked
with guys that thought it was wrong.
KW: You mentioned that you graduated from st. Michael's Church7
so you were Catholic then.
VK: Yeah.
KW: Did the priest, the ministers say anything about the strike?
Yeah. I didn't hear it but the family told me that the
young pastor said it was a terrible thing for the men to
be striking like that. And then the old pastor, Father
Trot, he come out and he said it was too bad that the
conditions were so that the men had to strike.
KW: So there was a difference there.
VK: Yeah, there was a difference of opinion or else he come
Vincent King
Page 22
l/
VK: out maybe because the young pastor had already said that
before, I don't know which.
KW: In that parish then of st. Mike's~ were there alot of
auto workers then in that parish?
VK: I don't know, it don't seem like there was that many but
I didn't - the ones that I graduated with - those kids -
their folks would more be the supervision type, see.i
i
KW: I wondered then if the people in the parish would b~~
sympathetic to the strike.
VK: I didn't know them that well because it was a big parish
and everything but I imagine that there was alot of them
that were. But I never seen any in the strike that come
from st. Mike's.
KW: Did you get the impression at all that the church, the
hierarchy of the churc~was with you or against you?
VK: Well, there was a pamphlet come out shortly after, you know,
by the priest or someone that said that the Pope or someone
said that they should have had a union years ago.
So there we:e some who were smypathie then to that. There
was a movement~ I don't know whether it was active then or
it is certainly now, the Association of Catholic Trade
Unionists.
a. ':i I wonder if you have heard of that at all ~
knew of that group. There was also a magizine put out
called the Catholic Worker which was sympathetic. You
didn't run into either of these?
VK: Well, I understand then that there were priests then at the
time that was supposed to be studing the labor movement and
they were sympathetic towards the strike.
KW: Did you run into any anticatholic felling, you know, feelingE
of hostility towards you or towards others because you were
Vincent King
Page 23
KW: Catholic. This was the time that I thinking of a little
before the Klu Klux Klan, you know, there was alot of
agitation in the Smith election in 1928~ you know, against
Smith because he was Catholic. I just wondered if you ran
into any of this?
VK: Yeah, because like if it hadn't been for Roosevelt and who
was it, was it Murph?iy that was governor then?
KW: Yeah, Frank Murph~.
VK: They would have probably run us out of there but when
Murph~ come up for reelection there was alot of guys
around me that said they wouldn't vote for that damned
Catholic. And he was the one that really saved our necks.
KW: There was alot of anticatholic sentiment against Murp~y
then because he was a Catholic. Do you think that that
contributed in part to his defeat in '38?
VK: Oh I think that it was, like the guys around me there, they
said that they wouldn't vote for him because he was Catholic.
KW: That's strange because he was so sympathetic during the
strike.
VK: Yeah, if he would have· let the National Guard out they
would have thrown us out.
KW: Were they strong union people then that were speaking
against him?
KW: When you reminded them that he had been so sympathic during
the strike, what did they say?
VK: LYeah. I don't know, it was just prejudice.
was just some of them.
Of course, it
KW: Right. Did you run into any Klan people, the KKK people?
VK: No, I never did.
Vincent King
Page 24
KW: The Black Legion because that was a group that was
apparently active during that time.
VK: No, I never run into any. Of course, I imagine alot of
them wouldn't let you know if they were or not.
KW: Right, that might be the case. Were there any blacks in
your - there we:en't any blacks in Fisher If
VK: No, I understand that there was somebody cleaning the
hospital that was black and that's it. But, I don't think
any blacks come in there to work until after the war.
KW: I see. Was that a policy of the company then not to
hire blacks?
VK: I don't know but it must have been.
KW: Would .there have been any trouble if they had brought them
in because there were alot of southerns, I guess, who •••
VK: There could have been.
KW: Did you notice then, this is interesting to me you, of coursE
{I were from Michigan, but where there alot of southern.r in
the plant?
VK: Oh there was alot. See, this end of Fisher there was alot
of southerns in there that would come in. Alot of them -
an awful lot of people would speak southern with a strong
southern accent. Bud Simons, himself, I think, was from
the south.
KW: Oh yeah.
VK: He seemed to have a southern accent.
KW: Could you generalize about whether they were good union
people or not? Were they easy to organize or were they
kind of difficult?
VK: I think they were good - I think that they were quite strong
union.
Vincent King
Page 25
KW: Did you associate much with them or did they sort of keep
to themselves?
VK: No, they seemed to mix alright.
roN: Were there many people, maybe second generation, who's
parents or themselves had been born in Poland or Hungary?
VK: Yeah, I think that there was more of that back then. One
of the guys I worked with was a Russian coal miner. I
think, I don't know, they always called him the Russian
whether his folks crune over.
KW: Steve Ko:imar.
VK: Steve Kotmar, yeah.
KW: He, of course, was a good union man. Were most of them
pretty union minded~
VK: It seemed like they were quite strong.
KW: When you come back after the strike, it settled then about
February 11th, did you notice changes on the job afterwards?
Well, yes, I noticed that on several of the jobs where they
had 2 men they added another man there.
KW: They hired more people then.
VK: Well, then I got moved to the south unit later and we went
down the line over there because we didn't figure on this
job that we were on that they had enough help then. They
gave into us and put more help on the job then. But, after
the union first come in, right after it did, it was easier
to get what you wanted then it is right now. Right now
they will fight you harder then they did then.
KW: Oh, you think management then was more willing to give in?
VK: Yeah, they were ready to give in.
KW: Now, your job wasn't particularly dangerous, was it?
VK: No.
Vincent King
Page 26
VK: In the press room they were.
KW: Did changes come about there, do you know? You were in the
paint department. Did you notice things getting any better,
i1:'.lprovement in the conditions in the paint department then?
VK: Well, it come about slow. I went out of the paint departmeni
in about '38, '39 and there wasn't any - much of any
changes yet then.
KW: It was still a pretty poor place to work. Did your wages
improve afterwards very much.
VK: Yeah, I think that they jumped about a quarter, they went
up about a quarter or something like that, of course that
was quite a bit then.
KW: So, the union did make a difference, the coming of the union.
VK: Oh yes.
KW: They introduced, apparently, a steward system too, to
settle their grievances. Did you •••
VK: They had a steward system... I liked the steward system
because, you know, when you go down the line on a job it
isn't that easy. When they tell you to take work, you got
to make believe that you are doing it or try to do it.
KW:
VK:
The foreman will stand right over you and keep watching you
and it is hard. But, with the steward system, why the
steward quite often would tangle with the foreman, see. The~
would lay off of the men.
ll You could get pretty close to your steward then.
/
r Yeah because he was right there in your group.
'----
KW: He didn't represent that many men, then. He would get to
know the men then pretty well on the line. You preferred
that then to the committee system that came along later?
Vincent King
Page 27
VK: Yeah because usually it was a guy with quite a bit of nerve
and he didn't mind tackling the foreman and he would tell
him to get off your back. Where your committee man now
might be on a different floor or some place else so he
isn't there.
KW: How long did that steward system last then before it moved
into the committee system?
VK: I don't think it lasted too many - a couple of years it
seems like.
KW: During the wa~ the committee system was put in effect.
VK: I think it was gone after I come back from the war.
KW: But, you preferred this steward system.
VK: Yes, why they eliminated it I don't know.
KW: You didn't have check off dues then, did you, you paid
your own dues, didn't you?
VK: When we first come in, yes. I don't remember how many
years we went over and paid, oh, it was quite a while that
we would go over the the union hall and pay our own dues.
KW: .Any trouble collreting the dues do you think? Did most of
the guys pay their dues pretty regularly or were there some
problems there?
VK: I don't know, see I don't know if guys paid up or not.
KW: Did you go to union meetings much.
VK: Yeah, we did more then right after the strike.
KW: Was the attendance pretty good at tnose union meetings?
VK: They were right after the strike, they were pretty good then
for awhile.
KW: You weren't a steward then yourself?
VK: No.
KW: Or a committee man?
Vincent King
Page 28
VK: No.
KW: So you didn't get into that.
VK: (
7
see,..,,,some griys though the union is just a way of life, I
mean, just like you might hunt or fish why they just live
that union. I never got into it like· that.
KW: Your brother apparently did.
VK: Yeah, he's strong union.
KW: Did relations with your foreman change at all, you said that
you got along fairly well with your foreman generally.
VK: Yeah, I did. But, there was some foreman in there that
you did what they say or you get out and they had to kind
of 1Bck down on that quite a bit.
KW: Now, after the strike apparently alot of people rushed to
join the union who had been hesitant, afraid to join before
that. Did you help recruit people into the Ufiion?
VK: I didn't, no, I didn't. There was some too that would
badger some guy to get into the union and I never done none
of that. If he didn't feel that it was gonna benefit him
why •••
KW: Some of the guys then would use a little pressure t•kM to
get people in the union'
VK: Yeah but we felt though,-('that if he didn't get in he was
gonna get the same benefits that we did and he would be
going along for the ride. We didn't like that too well
but still I didn't try to force anyone.
KW: Oh, one thing that I didn't bring up at the time that you
were in the plant. That is were there any damage done to
any of the machinery there.
VK: No, there wasn't. Well, shortly after we got in there they
had these patrols going through and they told us - give us
Vincent King
Page 30
VK: more work on people.
KW: It was awhile before they could adjust' to the union in that
sense.
VK: Yeah.
KW: Did the union men make efforts to slow things down, cut the
speed of the line?
VK: They did, well of course the speed of the line would stay
the same but they would put on more manpower to handle the
speed.
KW: That's what they would do rather .than cut the speed down
they would put in more men.
VK: Yes, they wanted as many cars as ever.
KW: You did get relief men then? Did that come in pretty quick?
VK: ~'.it's seems H.ke it was a few years later but I'm not sure.
KW: Did you take part in any efforts to organize other plants
after the strike?
VK: "' No.
KW: Because I gather that there were some guys that went down
to Pontiac and Southbend and helped organize Studabaker when
they were on strike.
VK: The union had regular organizers that they sent out.
KW: Apparently they would take sometimes car loads of men down
to give support to the pickets down there.
VK: I never went on any of those.
KW: Did you notice anything in the summer of '37, other strikes
in Flint because apparently there were strikes at Penny's
and the Durant Hotel and some of these other places.
VK: It seems to me that it was a few years after that that
strike~ caught on. I don't •••
KW: You don't remember anything right away then'
Vincent .King
Page 29
VK: talks and told us that any damage that we do would help us
to get kicked out of there that much quicker. Of course,
they laid on cushions and stuff like that. We laid in cars
and I suppose those wouldn't be sale~bre after that.
KW: Right. But no malicious damage?_
VK: No, no malicious damage.
KW: Did you notice any reporters and people coming through the
plant then to observe conditions.
VK: There was people that come in dressed up but I didn't know
just what they were doing.
KW: They just walked by as it was. Did they have certain people
that would show them through the plant then?
VK: Yeah they did. They would meet them at the door, I guess,
and bring them through. It seemed like they had some
entertainers in there too but I •••
KW: You did have shows then?
VK: Yeah they did but it wasn't that good I didn't think.
KW: Did you have any music out on the lawn or outside, of course
this was winter time so you didn't have as much of that'
VK: No.
KW: Apparently after the main sit-down strike there were some
wild cat strikes too in the plants.
VK: Yeah.
KW: Did you notice any of those? Did you get caught in any of
them?
VK: No, let's see, there was a couple that put us out of there
but I don't even remember what they were now.
KW: Do you know what the grievances might have been that would
cause these stoppages or slow-downs?
VK: Well, most always it was speedup, you know, they would dump
Vincent King
Page 31
VK: No.
KW: There was a construction company apparently that was
building an addition to Fisher I just after tkc strike and
the construction workers, I guess, went on strike and the
UAW promised that they would support that. Do you remember
anything about that~
VK: No I don't, I didn't know about that.
KW: But on the whole you think that it was worth while as you
look back on it.
VK: Oh yeah. I think that the biggest thing is your job
security though.
KW: And the fact that you have •••
VK: Another thing too that - like general repair, it just hap­pened
in the last 25 years, I think, that they could still
pick the~ men on general rep.air. It wouldn't be so ·bad
if they were picking them on their ability but alot of them
that they were picking were buddies. Finally, the union
raised the devil about that and that's the way that I got
on in general repair. They started going by seniority.
KW: I see.
VK: So alot of that stuff took years even after they had the
union. It took years to get.
KW: It was a slow process.
VK: It was, yeah.
KW: Well, this has been very interesting. Can you think of
anything else that we haven't touched on perhaps, Mr. King?
VK: No, I don't believe so. I think that you already know
pretty much as much as I do or more.
KW: Yeah but I don't get the touch that you can give me in
telling about what things were really like there and so
I appreciate verv much talkin~ to von Ri~~
Vincent King
Page 32
VK: One thin!( that hasn't been mentioned was - and I didn't
know him until I went on general repair and that's Russ
Elger.
KW: Russ Elger.
VK: He's in Davison and he was president of the local and he was
with the AF of I, when they and the CIO were having that, you
know. I read in the paper here that he is on the school
board in Davison.
KW: I see.
VK: And here Davison was having a strike, the teachers were
striking, and he was on the board so he was on the other
side.
KW: Russell Elger, then in Davison.
VK: Yeah, Russ "Jrlger.
KW: He was in the union then during the period of the strike?
VK: Yes he was because I think somebody tried to clobber him
or did clobber him when they were having that trouble with
the CIO and the AF of L.
KW: Was he Fisher I then?
VK: Yeah, yes he was because he worked with me the last 15
years before he retired.
KW: I see.
VK: He is quite smart, well he would be on the school board.
KW: Well, I'll have to get in touch with him. Is there anyone
else that you can think of?
VK: No.
KW: This Finnin, then, you mentioned he had a heard attack.
VK: Yeah, ]1nnin lived down the street here.
KW: Was he in Fisher I then with you and your brother?
VK: Yeah but I don't know where he worked, whether he was in the
Vincent King
Page 33
VK: north end or in the south end. He held an office - a job
for the union here outside of the plant. I don't know
just what it was, it was kind of a high up job he had here
in Flint but he lost that.
KW: Well, I thank you again.