VanEtten, Victor, 1903-1982

              INTERVIEW: January 2, 1979
INTERVIEWER: Neil Leighton
INTERVIEWEE: Victor VanEtten [Port Charlotte, Florida]
LEIGHTON: Mr. VanEtten, when did you first get involved in the labor
movement? Where did you first come in contact with unions?
VANETTEN: Well, I first came in contact with the union in the old A F of
L days when they carried on an organization that campaigned. And they
operated out of the Pengelly Building in Flint, Michigan. And, but what
year that was, now I can't remember.
LEIGHTON: It was about 1933, '32. That's when they started the campaign.
Let me go back a little bit. Were you born in Flint?
VANETTEN: No, I was born up in Wexford County and oh, near Cadillac,
Michigan, in October 1903.
LEIGHTON: When did you come to Flint...or did your family?
VANETTEN: Well, I think we came to Flint...when my father died up there
and my mother remarried; and I think we came to Flint in about 1907 or
1908.
LEIGHTON: So you were just a young boy then.
VANETTEN: Oh, yes. I was four or five years old when we came to Flint.
LEIGHTON: Were your parents farm people...farming people?
VANETTEN: No, my father...oh, I don't know what did he do? Well, I know
what we called at that time a junk shop where they bought iron and...
LEIGHTON: Scrap.
VANETTEN: Copper and brass and aluminum and stuff of that sort and he
worked in that business for years...I don't remember how many years
he... His place of business was on St. John Street and Louisa.
LEIGHTON: In?
VANETTEN: In Flint, Michigan. And we lived just across the street from
it.
SISTER: Vic, that's not your father; that's my father.
LEIGHTON: I see.
VANETTEN: Well, that was my stepfather.
SISTER: Yeah, but he wanted to know your father.
LEIGHTON: Yes, your father.
VANETTEN: Oh, oh, my father was a lumberjack.
LEIGHTON: Aha...the reason I asked that...let me explain this as I go
along. Your dad was a lumberjack...must have been up in the
northern...in the Upper Peninsula.
VANETTEN: Not in the Upper Peninsula, in the Lower Peninsula.
LEIGHTON: No, okay.
VANETTEN: There was lumber pretty well over in northern Michigan at that
time...in the northern Lower Peninsula.
LEIGHTON: Did he ever come in contact with the IWW? Did anybody ever...?
VANETTEN: Whether he did? No, I don't think so.
LEIGHTON: Were they active up there?
VANETTEN: In fact, I couldn't say for sure because I wouldn't remember; I
would have been too young. But as far as I know I don't think that he
probably ever heard of the IWW at that time.
LEIGHTON: One of the things that Bud told me...and I hadn't realized
this, is that early in Flint, probably around the turn of the century,
maybe before...when it was still in the lumbering and the
processing...the mill stage...lumberjacks who came from northern Michigan
and the U. P., a lot of Swedes, pulled a big strike in Flint...closed all
the mills down. That's something I've got to look at. And that's why I
asked that question. I thought maybe at that time, around the turn of
the century, of course, lumbering is beginning to die down and where are
these people going to go? So some of them find their way into the new
auto business. But at any rate, did your mother...was your mother a
housewife, or did she...?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: So she didn't work. When you came to Flint...when did you
start work; do you remember about what age?
VANETTEN: I think about when I was about seventeen, which would have been
about in 1920.
LEIGHTON: Okay, and...
VANETTEN: In the automobile shops.
LEIGHTON: Had you heard about labor unions at all in high school? Had
that made any effect on you?
VANETTEN: Well, they...
LEIGHTON: That would have been old Flint Central then?
VANETTEN: I remember one thing of hearing a lot at that time of the
copper strikes in the Upper Peninsula. And, in fact at that time I
wasn't in sympathy with miners. Of course I didn't know...only what was
pounded into your heads through the paper; and I remember when they broke
up the strikes, I thought at that time it was good idea, you know.
LEIGHTON: Those were Wobblies up there.
VANETTEN: What?
LEIGHTON: Those were Wobblies.
VANETTEN: That's right, I remember they were Wobblies.
LEIGHTON: Yeah, up there. So what...do you ever have any recollections
of when you began to turn around on this question of labor? Was it
before you went to work in the plants, or...
VANETTEN: Oh, after I went to work in the plants.
LEIGHTON: What plant did you work in first?
VANETTEN: I think I worked in the Chevrolet before I did Fisher. But the
most of my factory work was at Fisher Body.
LEIGHTON: Okay. In the 1920's then you were employed what...full-time,
most of the time?
VANETTEN: Yes, off and on, I mean I didn't stay on one job any too long.
But I was always working in the automobile shops. In fact, I've worked
with Chevrolet and worked at Fisher and worked at the old Imperial Wheel
Works.
LEIGHTON: That was in Flint?
VANETTEN: In Flint.
LEIGHTON: Any big labor strikes in the plants during the twenties?
VANETTEN: At that time, no, no.
LEIGHTON: Wages pretty stable...they didn't go up much, or were you well
paid compared to others?
VANETTEN: No, they went up pretty slow; in fact, when you got increases
it wasn't a dime and fifteen cents or more like it is today. The
increases were two or three cents an hour and they'd try to give you the
impression that they were really being good to you by giving you a couple
cents an hour raise...you know...which amounted to about eighteen cents a
day. We worked nine and ten hours then, five and a half days a week.
LEIGHTON: So in the twenties you would have made how much a day...just
roughly?
VANETTEN: Oh golly, I just can't remember.
LEIGHTON: For an hour...if you remember that?
VANETTEN: I can remember one time I worked on the railroad way back then
and we only got forty cents an hour. So it couldn't have been too much
more in the automobiles job. I'll always remember that because on the
railroad we worked an eight hour day and we got three twenty a
day...which is about eighteen dollars a week.
LEIGHTON: While you worked on the railroad...did you just work in and
around the yards in Flint?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Did you run across any union people in the railway?
VANETTEN: Yes, they were all organized on the railroad even at that time.
LEIGHTON: Did that make any impression on you, do you remember?
VANETTEN: Well, that's when I begin to see the light.
LEIGHTON: Okay, do you remember any organizers that stand out in your
mind from that period?
VANETTEN: No, I don't remember on the railroad if any organizers ever
come around. I mean, they had a kind of a peculiar set-up. The boss
signed you up for the union.
LEIGHTON: Okay...I realize that back in the nine...and the reason I'm
sticking on the twenties...is that the twenties seem to me at this
time...and as I say, I'm new to this whole game. But the twenties seem
more and more important because they really paved the way for the
Depression. Do you remember doing any reading...anything that stands out
in your mind, stuff that you may have read in the 1920's? I'll tell you,
a number of people have...
VANETTEN: At that time you mean?
LEIGHTON: Yeah.
VANETTEN: No, I don't recall right now of remembering anything that I
read...you mean on labor?
LEIGHTON: Yes.
VANETTEN: Not too much. I don't...
LEIGHTON: You would have...or on anything else that would have kind of
changed your way of thinking? Let me give you an example. What about
Robert Ingersoll?
VANETTEN: Robert Ingersoll...wait a minute, what was he...was he IWW?
LEIGHTON: Well, Ingersoll was the guy who wrote about religion...went all
over the country...wrote a lot of books. A lot of people called him an
atheist, but he appealed to a lot of working people at that time.
VANETTEN: I don't remember too much. I remember the name...the name
registers, but...
LEIGHTON: Oh, he spoke the Latin, you know. Large gatherings of
people...
VANETTEN: I just don't recall whether he was friendly to labor or whether
he was...
LEIGHTON: Oh, he was. Do you remember any of the big law cases of the
time...?
VANETTEN: Sacco-Vanzetti.
LEIGHTON: Sacco-Vanzetti. Now that was 1927. And do you remember
how...when you read about Sacco-Vanzetti...did you think they were
getting the proper treatment or did you think...
VANETTEN: No, I thought they were getting a raw deal; I was converted by
that time.
LEIGHTON: You were converted by that time. Okay. Did you...
VANETTEN: I still think they got a raw deal.
LEIGHTON: The evidence seems to show that, too. Were there any active
moves in Flint to organize support for Sacco-Vanzetti...collecting money,
letters...these were pretty widespread across the country, of course.
VANETTEN: There might have been, but right at the moment I don't recall.
LEIGHTON: Okay. There was another big case in 1923; I can't remember
what it is. It was another big labor case; I don't think it was...was it
Big Bill Haywood from the IWW...
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: On trial then...that would have been '23 or '24.
VANETTEN: I don't remember what year it was, but I remember...no, the
Haymarket Riot was previous to that, wasn't it?
LEIGHTON: Oh, the Haymarket Riot, yeah.
VANETTEN: That was back in 1998, I think, wasn't it?
LEIGHTON: 1898, yes, somewhere in there...near the end of the... Do you
have any recollections about Joe Hill, or does that name...? Joe Hill was
the famous Wobbly...an organizer and a songwriter.
VANETTEN: I just faintly remember...remember that name, but there was
another labor case at that time...what was the name of it...around
Pittsburgh in the steel...what was that?
LEIGHTON: Well, there was the 1919 strike in Pittsburgh...the steel
strike that failed, when William Foster led the steel workers...and the
big steel strike.
VANETTEN: What was the name of tha,t though? I'm trying to think of it.
LEIGHTON: I know; I can't either...that's terrible.
VANETTEN: I had it on the end of my tongue a minute ago.
LEIGHTON: Well, we'll come back to it.
VANETTEN: Anyway I can't think of it now. I remember that case, too, but
I don't remember the year connected with it.
LEIGHTON: Okay. In the twenties, do you remember in Flint any
individuals who were speaking about industrial unionism...not the A F of
L...now, not the federated. Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, for example, or
Mother Bloor or...did any of these people come to Flint and speak or did
you attend any...
VANETTEN: Well, I wouldn't say they didn't, but I don't recall. And, in
fact, I can't even recall the first meeting I ever went to hear an
organizational speech.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Would it...was it before the Depression, though?
VANETTEN: Yes, I must have went to meetings before the Depression; see,
that would have been in '32, wouldn't it?
LEIGHTON: Well, it starts in '29, but it really gets rough in '30, '31,
'32.
VANETTEN: I just don't recall, but there must have been people coming in
there off and on to speak.
LEIGHTON: Did you ever know Carl Johnson?
VANETTEN: No, but I knew Kermit.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: Who is Carl Johnson?
LEIGHTON: His father.
VANETTEN: Oh, that was Kermit's father.
LEIGHTON: Yeah, the reason I mentioned Carl Johnson, he was an early, I
suppose you could call him, labor radical...an old Socialist...and used
to talk to a lot of people and give them stuff to read.
VANETTEN: I must have had some kind of contact with him at some time or
other; but I can't remember now. But Kermit, I knew Kermit well.
LEIGHTON: Did you know him way before the strike?
VANETTEN: Oh, I knew him before the strike, yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay, did he ever talk to you about organizing or...?
VANETTEN: See, Kermit was from the Chevrolet.
LEIGHTON: Well, we'll catch him later. In 1930 there was a strike in
Flint, a big strike, at the Fisher I plant. Were you working at Fisher
in 1930?
VANETTEN: I can't remember whether I was working at Fisher in 1930 or
not. Oh yes, yes, I was. Yeah, I remember the strike now. That's the
strike when I first met this Mike Radeka...
LEIGHTON: Radeka. Radeka, okay.
VANETTEN: That's when I first met Mike Radeka.
LEIGHTON: Okay, and what was Mike Radeka...what did he?
VANETTEN: Well, he was just around...cheerin' up the strikers and his
son...like his son George was workin' in the plant...I forget where
George worked, but he worked in Fisher I. Yeah, I remember that strike.
LEIGHTON: So Mike Radeka was an organizer for somebody or was he a...did
he belong to a political party?
VANETTEN: I couldn't tell you that; but I know he spent quite a lot of
time around the strike and helping picket lines and so forth, you know.
LEIGHTON: But he didn't work in the plant?
VANETTEN: I don't think Mike worked in the plant, if I remember right. I
don't recall him working in the plant, but I wouldn't say that he didn't.
But I don't think Mike worked in the Fisher. I don't know what Mike did.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember a woman who came up from Detroit in that
strike...played a pretty prominent role...got arrested?
VANETTEN: There was some woman, but what was her name?
LEIGHTON: I haven't got the thing with me but I've got the record of it.
She came up from Detroit...got her picture in the Flint Journal.
VANETTEN: Yeah.
LEIGHTON: Hauled her off to jail.
VANETTEN: Yeah, I remember.
LEIGHTON: Were you in the march that came out of the plant?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: And marched into downtown Flint.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember who led the march?
VANETTEN: It's funny; I should be able to think of that woman's name,
but...
LEIGHTON: I wish I'd brought the...I have the copy of the paper, you
know, a xerox copy; but I just couldn't bring everything with me. What
led to the 1930 strike?
VANETTEN: Well, I'd say the big issue that led to the big strike...you're
talking about the sit-down strike?
LEIGHTON: No, the 1930 strike.
VANETTEN: I can't recall whether that was the...whether speed-up was the
big issue then or not, but it was when the sit-down strike started. I'd
say that was the...the big issue.
LEIGHTON: But the ‘30 strike, the reason I'm harping on that...it appears
to me very important, because people like yourself...now we're right on
target with you...get their first taste of what this whole thing is
about...in that 1930 strike. And a lot of people in the sit-down strike
remember that. That's only six years before.
VANETTEN: Well, I think, if I recall right...and maybe Bud and Bob's talk
will bear this out...or bear me out right or wrong...I think that one of
the big issues in that strike was the lack of seniority. In other words,
when it come to layoff, the guy that brought the apples and hams into the
boss, why, he kept his job and you went out.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Was there...do you remember the foreman...how did
somebody get hired at that time? Did you get hired through family,
friends?
VANETTEN: Yes, that's right. And at that time the boss would actually,
the boss done the hiring rather than the employment office. I forget
just how they worked it now, but I know if you was a friend of the boss
or a friend of a friend of his, why the boss sent in word for you and you
were put on.
LEIGHTON: What department did you work in in 1930?
VANETTEN: I think I was in the wet sand then. I always worked in the
paint shop.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: Well, and I worked on metal finishing for awhile but not very
long. But most of my years working in the shop was in the paint shop.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: Wet sanding and oil sanding.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember...not the peoples' names, necessarily, but the
guys you worked with...where were they from...were they from all over or
were they from the South or were they from overseas?
VANETTEN: Quite a few of them were from the South.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: I know we had quite a few from Missouri and Louisiana...biggest
bunches I think was from them two states.
LEIGHTON: This is in 1930, now; we're still in 1930. Were there many
people from the St. John's area, the foreign-speaking element in Flint?
Were they working in Fisher at that time?
VANETTEN: Where was this...from the street where we lived, you mean?
LEIGHTON: No, well, you know, the St. John's area in Flint...
VANETTEN: What do you call the St. John's area?
LEIGHTON: Along St. John Street.
VANETTEN: Oh, Oh.
LEIGHTON: A lot of Macedonians and Bulgarians and...
VANETTEN: Oh, yes, there was.
LEIGHTON: Were there many of those people from there working in the
plants in 1930?
VANETTEN: We didn't have so much of that at Fisher. The most of them
worked in Chevrolet and quite a few in Buick. But we didn't have too
many of them from European countries or from foreign element in Fisher.
I don't know why.
LEIGHTON: Chick Annanich would have been an exception.
VANETTEN: Yes, yes.
LEIGHTON: A lot of people from just rural Michigan, as well, would come
in in 1930.
VANETTEN: Yeah, farmers.
LEIGHTON: Yeah. Now, at that time, in 1930, did you live on St. John's
and Louisa?
VANETTEN: Oh, no, not then. I don't recall...
SISTER: We lived on Washington then.
VANETTEN: Yeah, that's where we lived; we lived over on Washington. I
don't know how well you...well you know where the Armory is on
Washington. Washington runs right down off Lewis Street right there by
the Armory.
LEIGHTON: Okay, yes. Soon as you said "the Armory" I remembered. I'm
trying to get some idea of what the plant looked like in 1930 because
things change quite a bit. The...any black workers in 1930 in Fisher?
VANETTEN: Fisher never did have many black workers up until the time I
left; but I don't know how it is in late years. Back at that time there
was practically no black people in Fisher. But black people worked in
the shops, worked in Buick and Chevrolet as sweepers.
LEIGHTON: Right. You only had...well, there was only a couple of...
VANETTEN: No matter how much seniority they had they just never got a job
above a sweeper or much above...at that time.
LEIGHTON: Right. The 1930 strike...you walked out the door, you went
down Saginaw Street...what happened to you; did you get arrested?
VANETTEN: No, I don't think I did. I just can't recall now what
happened, but I remember the strike and I remember the picket line.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember a guy named Scavarda?
VANETTEN: Yes, Chief of Police.
LEIGHTON: State police, wasn't he? Was he Flint police or state police?
VANETTEN: Wait, Scavarda...well, wasn't he with the State Police and then
later was the police chief in Flint?
LEIGHTON: Could be.
VANETTEN: One time he was chief of police; I know that, but whether it
was before or after his state police sojourn, I don't know.
LEIGHTON: That 1930 strike, were there mounted police, do you remember?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Did they attack the picket line?
VANETTEN: They were pretty rough, too.
LEIGHTON: Did they attack the picket line?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Did they attack you during the march when you went into town?
VANETTEN: I can't remember that, but I can remember them out around the
plant bringing them horses up and just forcing them back with the horses.
LEIGHTON: Okay. What about the local Flint police? Were they involved
in that, too?
VANETTEN: I don't recall whether the Flint police were involved in that
particular one or not. But they certainly were in the sit-down.
LEIGHTON: What about the city officials in the 1930's...meaning the
mayor, the council, were they opposed to the...?
VANETTEN: I think they pretty much were, but I just don't recall that for
sure, either. Who was mayor then, do you recall?
LEIGHTON: No, I don't; I wish I had brought a thing along but I didn't. I
do know...at the time of the sit-down strike when we get there. A lot of
people said that in the 1930 strike...and when we read the Flint
Journal...that the Communist Party was heavily involved in that. Do you
remember your department or the men in your department ever being
approached by members of the Communist Party or...in the 1930 strike?
VANETTEN: Well, if they were, nobody knew what they were.
LEIGHTON: Okay. The problem is, of course, the reason I asked that is in
1930 and even up to the sit-down strike, General Motors labels everybody
a Communist; everybody's a Red who is involved. And I wondered...in the
1930 strike...I'm trying to recreate the political landscape...whether
the various political factions had already been active in the ‘30 strike
or did that strike catch them by surprise? They're much better organized
by the time you get to 1936.
VANETTEN: Oh yes, much more.
LEIGHTON: So do you remember any other...did the Socialist Party have any
organizers, activists...did they come around?
VANETTEN: The Socialist Party, I think at that time back in the thirties,
to my knowledge, were probably, I would say, more active than the
Communist Party. Or at least everybody that I happened to know happened
to be Socialists.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember from the 1930 strike did they have an organizer
in the plant or in your department?
VANETTEN: I don't recall.
LEIGHTON: Did anybody...
VANETTEN: Would that have been around the time that the A F of L started
organizing there?
LEIGHTON: After, as a result...well...
VANETTEN: I can't remember what year that was, but them were the first
like I know as paid organizers that came in for the...
LEIGHTON: Okay, no, that comes later; but that's important. The 1930
strike...I'm trying to see what kind of a role the various parties would
have played in that strike...I guess I'm fishing, 'cause I don't know
whether they really did or not. Do you remember any other political
party involved at all in the ‘30 strike...at the time of the thirties?
VANETTEN: No, but I always had an idea that the SWP were.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: But I never knew...I couldn't say that for sure.
LEIGHTON: That would have been the Socialist Workers for the Trotsky...
VANETTEN: Yeah, Socialist Workers Party.
LEIGHTON: Were they known as the Trotskyites at that time?
VANETTEN: Yes, the Trotskyites.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Do you remember going out...at the time of the 1930
strike...do you remember trying to hold any kind of rally and Scavarda's
men breaking them up...a farm south of town?
VANETTEN: Yes, yes, yes, I do.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember anything about the farm...not about the farm
but about the farmer?
VANETTEN: No, no, that I don't; but I presume that they were probably
farm...
LEIGHTON: In the 1930 strike, then, when you had the rally out, let's say
on a farm, how would you find the place? How would you get there?
VANETTEN: Well, we would be told to go to a certain corner of certain
roads and then there would be somebody standing there to point you the
direction.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: Then maybe on the next mile or the next two miles, well,
there'd be somebody else. In other words you would keep a going until
you come to somebody standing there and they'd point. And so finally you
came to the farm where it was and they'd have you turn off the road and
turn in. But where these farms were I wouldn't know anymore, nor on what
roads they were on.
LEIGHTON: And we couldn't find them anyway; they're probably a shopping
center.
VANETTEN: And there...I forget now whether it was state police...but I
think it was the state police...I'm sure it was the state police...broke
up two or three different rallies.
LEIGHTON: Mounted police again?
VANETTEN: Mounted police.
LEIGHTON: Scavarda, okay. Can you think of anybody from that period of
time who...in those rallies...at the time of those rallies. Well, let
me stop a second...those rallies...when you went to the rally, who spoke?
Do you remember?
VANETTEN: No, I don't but I think they had a speaker come in from out of
town, I think. I don't recall anybody ever speaking at them that I knew.
LEIGHTON: Okay. You don't remember any names?
VANETTEN: No, I don't remember any names.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Do you remember some of the things they said? Were they
primarily talking about industrial unionism or were they talking
specifically about the need to organize that Fisher plant?
VANETTEN: Well, I think the ones that we were at were talking of
organizing the Fisher plant, as I recall. But, like I say, it's a long
time ago, and some of these things are kind of fuzzy in my memory.
LEIGHTON: Oh, sure. Did they ever talk about...like revolutionary
aims...or the need to change society?
VANETTEN: No, they didn't...I don't ever remember them going that far.
But I do remember them saying that for our own benefit that we would have
to organize to...well, increase our wages and better our working
conditions.
LEIGHTON: Sure. One last thing on the 1930 strike. Do you remember a
guy named Jack Palmer?
VANETTEN: No.
LEIGHTON: Okay, Jack Palmer was in the 1930 strike.
VANETTEN: Was he a speaker or anything like that?
LEIGHTON: No, no, no; he was just a very young guy; still in Flint, doing
some work in the 1930 strike...kind of interested in it. And he was in
the sit-down, too.
VANETTEN: The sit-down where?
LEIGHTON: At Chevrolet.
VANETTEN: Oh, at Chevrolet.
LEIGHTON: After 1930 when the strike...what happens to the strike? Do
you remember what happens to the...?
VANETTEN: As I recall, I just think we went in like whipped dogs!
LEIGHTON: Okay, you went back to work where the conditions stayed the
same or did they get worse?
VANETTEN: Yes, they did, because that's the conditions were what brought
on the sit-down strike.
LEIGHTON: Did the foreman take off after you then; or were they rougher
than they were before...or did they just?
VANETTEN: Yes, I think they were; they were rough from I'd say ‘30 or ‘31
right up until the sit-down strike, they were.
LEIGHTON: Okay. There was no...would this be proper assumption then?
There really was no relief from the conditions in the Fisher plant until
the sit-down strike. Is that Right?
VANETTEN: Well, I would say that's pretty close to correct.
LEIGHTON: Did you stay working at Fisher, then, from 1930 up through the
sit-down strike?
VANETTEN: I think I was in there all that period of time.
LEIGHTON: You didn't change jobs, then?
VANETTEN: No, I don't think so.
LEIGHTON: Okay. And you stayed pretty much in paint and wet sand that
you were talking about.
VANETTEN: Oh, yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Do you remember when...between 1930 and when Bud Simons
comes in 1934...was there any organizing or any talk of organizing going
on?
VANETTEN: Well, there was muttering, yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay...you had to be very careful what you said on the job.
VANETTEN: Yes, you had to be real careful.
LEIGHTON: Did you meet out in these peoples' homes at all to talk about
organizing?
VANETTEN: Right, right.
LEIGHTON: Now this is before...
VANETTEN: We met in different guys' basements and their garages and...
LEIGHTON: Now this is before the sit-down strike...way before...
VANETTEN: Oh yes.
LEIGHTON: And you still were meeting. Okay, do you remember any people
coming into Flint in that period...1930 to 1934? That's a blank as far
as I'm concerned; I don't know much about it. When Bud Simons comes to
town he and Joe Devitt and Walter Moore...in 1934 and '35 we know we
begin to pick up some more. But from 1930 to 1934 we're dependent on
people who lived in Flint pretty much. And we don't know what went on,
in terms of labor activity. Do you...?
VANETTEN: Well, I know that different...well, I don't know about people
coming in...whether there was many come in or not, I can't answer that
either. But I presume that there was, because every time after they had
a model change or there was an influx in the number of workers in the
plant, by then there was bound to be a lot of them come in from the
outside. Now, whether...I think I'd be safe in saying that most of them
were from the South. And what weren't from the South, outside of a very
few, would probably have been farmers from outstate Michigan.
LEIGHTON: Right. Do you remember any political activity going on in
Flint? In other words, let me give you an example. We talked a little
bit about the Socialist party. Let me flip all the way to the other
side. In 1930, the failure of the strike...1934 and the A F of L begins
to organize again. The Black Legion...was the Black Legion active in
1930?
VANETTEN: I don't know; I don't think the Black Legion was active then.
I don't believe, but I couldn't say that for a fact, but I know the Black
Legion was really active in Fisher Body. But that was later. And now
we're talking about the time of the sit-down strikes and the Black Legion
was pretty powerful in there, especially out in the press room. That's
where one of the leaders...
LEIGHTON: A guy named Bert Harris...
VANETTEN: Bert Harris.
LEIGHTON: Right. There was a guy named Jack Little, too, was there not?
VANETTEN: I don't remember that, but there was another one by the name of
Harold Hubbard who was quite active in it, too.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Did they ever confide in you anything about the Black
Legion...or?
VANETTEN: No, they didn't. They pretty well knew who to approach.
LEIGHTON: Okay, but this came along much later.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Now, do you remember at all did the Auto Workers Union - AWU
did they get started in the Fisher plant at all, or did they make any
approaches towards it?
VANETTEN: I don't think they ever they made much approaches there; if
they did it was beyond me.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: I remember hearing them now after you mention it, but I don't
know anything about it.
LEIGHTON: They were a...well they got started independently and had
broken with the A F of L and then later on it became a federated local.
Did you ever attend any of the meetings in the Pengelly Building of the A
F of L once they started to organize?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: You did, okay. Who was active...do you remember...in the
organizing of that in town?
VANETTEN: There was one guy...seems like his name was Francis. Is that
name familiar?
LEIGHTON: Could be.
VANETTEN: He was the only one that I can remember the name of...
LEIGHTON: There was a guy named Dillon...
VANETTEN: Dillon, Francis Dillon...that's where I got the “Francis.“
Dillon, that's it.
LEIGHTON: Yes, Frank Dillon. Did he ever make much of an appeal to
people, or did they just kind of ignore him?
VANETTEN: Oh, I don't think he had a knack of reaching the workers.
That's just my opinion.
LEIGHTON: Did you go to very many of these meetings, or did you get
tired...
VANETTEN: Oh, lots...I went to pretty near every meeting; I was always
there then. I was always pretty active.
LEIGHTON: Were there large numbers of people there or did they...?
VANETTEN: Yes, they had some pretty good turnouts. Well, I'd say, it
wouldn't be a very good turnout compared to the numbers of workers in
Flint; but the hall would be full...but it wasn't...that isn't a huge
hall, or wasn't.
LEIGHTON: Wasn't...long gone now.
VANETTEN: Guess it's tore down now.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes, long gone now. From what I hear it was ready to fall
down even then.
VANETTEN: Yes, it was; it was an old, old building then.
LEIGHTON: The A F of L...was it trusted by the guys in Fisher?
VANETTEN: No, I don't know about the other plants; but in Fisher I mean
they didn't have too much use for the A F of L.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember why that was?
VANETTEN: No, I don't. I imagine because at the top they weren't knowing
of them enough. It seems that the body workers in all of these
industrial centers are the ones that was the most active and the ones
that led the fight.
LEIGHTON: Why was that; do you know?
VANETTEN: Well, I think in one way because maybe the speed-up might have
been greater, and it was hard to work because like Duco polishing and oil
sanding and water sanding...that was all...it was pretty tough
work...pretty hard work. And I think that's one of the reasons that made
them much more militant. The other shops didn't move until after Fisher
had moved two or three times.
LEIGHTON: Right. Were they...is it also a more skilled job...would you
say...body work?
VANETTEN: Well, I wouldn't say it was highly skilled, either, like wet
sanding or that. It was just plain hard work...a back-breaking work.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Do you think that the workers...well, let's put it this
way. Did any of the workers by 1934 when the A F of L had started
organizing again, did any of them ever mention to you the fact that the A
F of L had not come to support them in the 1930 strike?
VANETTEN: Well, I know that when the A F of L started organizing...you
say that was in '34...I don't remember the year. But yes, that was the
say that they...you couldn't depend on them for support.
LEIGHTON: Okay. In terms...your own memory now of these things...there
really...would you characterize the saying there wasn't much went on
until when...from 1930 until...when do things begin to heat up?
VANETTEN: Well, I don't know...if I understand you right...I wouldn't
exactly put it that way. I think they were heating up from '30 on.
LEIGHTON: They were, okay. What kind of indications do you have...did
you have? Were there guys...were there a lot of fights, for example,
between men on the line, outside the plant?
VANETTEN: Fights, you say?
LEIGHTON: Fights, yes. You know, guys that were frustrated taking it out
on each other.
VANETTEN: I don't recall ever...there might have been quite a bit of it,
but I don't recall ever seeing too much of it. I've seen fights outside
of the plant, but...
LEIGHTON: Did the...when did you begin to get some...you said that men
were meeting in garages and basements and that type of thing...even in
those early years. But did anything come out of it, do you remember?
VANETTEN: Well, I think it was those meetings that got the thing going
again and got them well enough organized to pull the sit-down strike that
was a success.
LEIGHTON: When you were meeting in those...did you...you probably went to
some of those, didn't you?
VANETTEN: Oh, I went to a lot of them.
LEIGHTON: Did...
VANETTEN: See, guys like Bud, myself and Walt Moore and Jay Green, we
why, some of us would always try to go to one of these meetings.
LEIGHTON: Okay, but this was after...this was what...the year before the
sit-down strike...in that year, '36?
VANETTEN: I forget whether it was just a year before or maybe a couple
of years before that we started really having meetings...all over town.
LEIGHTON: Okay, how come you guys, you fellows went to these meetings?
In other words, you guys must have been spending some time together.
VANETTEN: We were, we were.
LEIGHTON: And how did you come in contact with Bud and Joe and Walt
Moore?
VANETTEN: Oh, golly, I forget how...I think at an organizational meeting
of some kind I first came in contact with Bud and Joe and Walt Moore and
Jay Green.
LEIGHTON: Would...did you ever attend any meetings...I sound like a guy
from the FBI, you know. I hate to "Did you ever", "did you
ever"...except that there's forty some years in between. Did you ever go
to any meetings in Lorne Herrlich's house?
VANETTEN: No, I knew Lorne Herrlich, but I don't know how come I never
got in on any of them. You mean the drugs here in town.
LEIGHTON: Yes, the drugstore guy.
VANETTEN: He was pretty liberal.
LEIGHTON: Yes. Were there any other guys coming around at that
time...that were, you know, trying to...we know later on?
VANETTEN: Like outsiders, like Herrlich?
LEIGHTON: Well, Herrlich was not an outsider, was he? I mean he was a
Flint...
VANETTEN: Well, I didn't mean from out of town, but I meant out of the
shop.
LEIGHTON: Yes, yes. We know...now in '36 of course, from Mortimer's,
Mortimer comes around and he goes to these meetings; but that's a little
later. And then Bob Travis comes along in October. But that's late in
the game for right now, because Mortimer comes in June, Travis comes in
October and replaces him in their meeting. But before that, did somebody
come into town...well, let me give you some thoughts. There's John
North...does that ring any bell?
VANETTEN: Gee, that name faintly rings a bell; what was he?
LEIGHTON: John North would have been the organizer for the Communist
Party in Grand Rapids.
VANETTEN: That's where I heard him...that's where I heard him.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VAMETTEN: I figured that some... I just faintly remember...I can't even
remember. I don't know whether I was ever to a meeting that John North
spoke at or not. I don't know.
LEIGHTON: There...I'm trying to see if I can catch that name...there was
another guy...now in '36 at least, a guy named Hy Fish...Brookwood Labor
College, American Socialist...the Socialist Party.
VANETTEN: Hy Fish, yes, I remember.
LEIGHTON: Did he come to town?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Did he come to town, at all, do you remember?
VANETTEN: I don't know; what kind of a looking guy was Hy Fish?
LEIGHTON: Don't know; he's still alive.
VANETTEN: That name registers...
LEIGHTON: Labor education or labor coordinator for the Socialist
Party, probably stationed in Chicago at that time.
VANETTEN: I don't know whether I ever...the name is familiar, but...
LEIGHTON: Okay. Will Weinstone?
VANETTEN: Oh, I know Weinstone.
LEIGHTON: Did he come in that period?
VANETTEN: In what period?
LEIGHTON: Let's say '34, '35, a year or so before the strike.
VANETTEN: Well, I think that Bill Weinstone came...he came, but I don't
know whether it was a year before or could have been two years. Yes, I
knew Bill Weinstone.
LEIGHTON: Now, there was a guy before Will Weinstone.
VANETTEN: Yes, Reno.
LEIGHTON: Reno, okay. And did he come up and do some organizing...did he
try and recruit people for the Party, or did he...?
VANETTEN: Yes, he was recruiting people for the Party. But I forget
whether Reno was the one ahead of Weinstone or not. There might have
been another one in there.
LEIGHTON: A guy named Goetz, Goertz...?
VANETTEN: Well, that must have been before Reno, maybe.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: That name doesn't register with me at all.
LEIGHTON: Did Will Weinstone pass on any ideas to you about how to
conduct these meetings...what to say to workers? What I'm getting at is
that the Party...Will Weinstone has granted interviews to a couple of
people now. A young fellow named Keeran has done a dissertation
and Will Weinstone is going to talk with us. So there's not anything so
secret anymore. But one of the things that we are pretty sure of is that
the Communist Party had quite a bit of experience by the time 1946 comes
along...a lot of it done getting their heads knocked, but they...
VANETTEN: In fact, I would make this statement...that I don't think that
Flint would have been organized for another two, three years at
least...and maybe not ever...if it had not been for the Communist Party.
LEIGHTON: Did Will or somebody before him come in and kind of sit down
with a bunch of the people either in your department or in Fisher I and
say, "This is what we've learned on how to conduct a strike"? Did he do
that?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: That was done; okay. Were there any other groups that did
that?
VANETTEN: I wouldn't say too often, but it was done.
LEIGHTON: Were there any other groups that did anything...like the
Proletarian Party, for example?
VANETTEN: No, the Proletarian Party took a little different position on
that.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember what it was?
VANETTEN: Well, the Proletarian Party, they always tried to enroll people
for the Proletarian Party, but they didn't believe in interfering in the
rights of the union, as I get it.
LEIGHTON: They didn't try and sign you up for the union, in other words,
to get you...
VANETTEN: They were well versed in Marxism, though, better so than most
members of the Communist Party.
LEIGHTON: But they didn't take much of an active role, though, is that
what you're saying?
VANETTEN: Right, right.
LEIGHTON: And that would separate them from the Communists who
were...what were trying to enroll people into the Party, but also into
the union.
VANETTEN: Right.
LEIGHTON: When did you first meet Wyndham Mortimer?
VANETTEN: Well, when he was in there before...just ahead of Bob.
LEIGHTON: Okay, so in the summer of '36.
VANETTEN: Homer Martin wanted to get Wyndham Mortimer out of there. I
suppose you've got the story. And Wyndham Mortimer, for the good of the
movement, said that he would withdraw providing that he could name the
guy that took his place; and Bob Travis was the guy. And Homer Martin
had no choice but to do it, not that he wanted Bob in there.
LEIGHTON: Before Mortimer comes to town...
VANETTEN: I don't remember...I couldn't say...I mean, it's like I say,
some of these things are so far back...but he wasn't there very long
before I knew him, I can tell you that.
LEIGHTON: But before he comes...before you met him the first time...you
had already met Bud Simons and Joe Devitt...or was it Wyndham Mortimer
who introduced you to these guys?
VANETTEN: Well, that might be; I don't recall. I honestly don't recall
that whether I knew Wyndham Mortimer ahead of Joe Devitt and Bud or not
or whether I knew Bud and Joe first. I don't recall. Maybe you could
get that from Joe Devitt, if that is important.
LEIGHTON: Well, what I'm getting at here...what I'm fishing at is how
long...one thing we're pretty sure of is that a lot of people said, well,
this Flint sit-down strike was spontaneous. The guys just got fed up
with it and they sat down. Well, we know that's not true. So there was
a lot of work went into making that strike. And what we really want to
know is were there guys in Flint...working in the plant...getting
together, talking about some kind of action, getting themselves organized
and then Mortimer comes in...or does Mortimer come in to a situation
which is pretty ripe for a strike and begin to put the pieces together?
The guy is a genius; there's no question about that. But did you have a
group of people in your department or in Fisher I who met pretty
regularly and who were doing some various things, in other words in an
assigned basis. You were going, and somebody said, "Now why don't you go
over to this tavern or this party tonight...house party and talk to so
and so...these people about joining the union...or you take a stack of
cards and go out and try and get those signed"? Or did that come after
Mortimer came?
VANETTEN: When the most of the signing up of the cards was done was after
Mortimer had left and Bob took his place, 'cause that's how I first met
Bob. I think Joe Devitt or Bud took cards in and they had the guy that
passed out the cards, they had his name on them. And my name was on so
many cards and Bob asked why...who this guy was. And somebody passed the
word to somebody to tell me he wanted to talk to me. So that's how I
first met Bob, I recall now.
LEIGHTON: Okay, but you had met Mortimer before you met Bob.
VANETTEN: Oh, yes.
LEIGHTON: And Mortimer had placed his trust in you, I take it.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember how Mortimer met you...was there somebody else
in between that got you two together?
VANETTEN: I can't remember, I just don't remember. That's funny; as well
as I knew Mort...'cause Mort and I exchanged cards at Christmas for
years, 'course he's dead now. I don't recall how or where I first met
him. I couldn't say.
LEIGHTON: Bill Weinstone would not have been the intermediary?
VANETTEN: No, I don't think so, I don't think so.
LEIGHTON: You had been doing some organizing work though before Mort
comes along...not just signing up guys but talking it up.
VANETTEN: Oh yes.
LEIGHTON: But had you guys kind of divided the labor, I guess is what I'm
getting at?
VANETTEN: Were there other guys, along with yourself, who were going to
...on a conscious basis meeting with guys and trying to talk up joining a
labor...joining and forming a union?
VANETTEN: Well, in Fisher we didn't have too big a group that was
actually doing the most of the work. It was a pretty small and select
group.
LEIGHTON: Who was the select group; do you remember?
VANETTEN: Well, it was Bud was in it, Joe Devitt, Pete Kennedy...I can't
remember them all...Clayton Carpenter, Roy Marsa, Jay Green.
LEIGHTON: Roy Reuther around at that time?
VANETTEN: Well, Roy never was out to Fisher too much, but...I always
thought Roy was, but maybe that's because I knew the guy a little better
than...we were on just...
LEIGHTON: To get back to the group, though...
VANETTEN: Well, let me see if I can name some more. I think I named
Clayton Carpenter and Roy Marsa, didn't I?
LEIGHTON: Yes. Marsa...was that his name?
VANETTEN: M a r s a.
LEIGHTON: I haven't heard that name before, so that's a new one.
VANETTEN: There was Doc Matta.
LEIGHTON: What about the Workers' Alliance?
VANETTEN: Well, I think everybody knows what the Workers' Alliance
was...I presume it was organized by some of the city fathers...I don't
know...
LEIGHTON: Oh, you mean the Flint Alliance...the Flint Alliance.
VANETTEN: Yes...I said the Workers' Alliance...I think they did call it
the Workers' Alliance.
LEIGHTON: I think they had the term workers in it, yes.
VANETTEN: I think they did use that term.
LEIGHTON: The Flint Alliance of Workers and something or other.
VANETTEN: And it was well...to try to bust up the strike, you know.
LEIGHTON: George Boysen...
VANETTEN: Yes, led by Boysen...was that his name, Boysen?
LEIGHTON: Yes, right, Boysen.
VANETTEN: I forget whether he was mayor or not.
LEIGHTON: No, he was a...
VANETTEN: City commissioner or something?
LEIGHTON: He might have been on the County Commission, but he was...he
had worked at Buick at one time; he was an ex-mayor of Flint; he had been
mayor.
VANETTEN: Oh, I was thinking he had been mayor.
LEIGHTON: Because the mayor was a guy named Bradshaw, at the time of the
strike...Bradshaw.
VANETTEN: Was Bradshaw the mayor then? I think I'd forgotten that.
LEIGHTON: Did you ever have any contact with the Flint Alliance?
VANETTEN: No, not personally, no. I just knew of them.
LEIGHTON: A lot of people are interested to see what the nature of the
connection between the Alliance and General Motors really was. They are
pretty sure it was, but they're not...
VANETTEN: Well, if I recall correctly, I think Boysen had a pretty good
job with General Motors, if I recall correctly.
LEIGHTON: Yes, he had, right.
VANETTEN: I know we figured he was a GM man, anyway.
LEIGHTON: When Mortimer comes to town how does he know...in June
1936...how does he know what people he can trust and which ones he can't?
You were obviously one of the ones he can trust. How does he know he
could trust you?
VANETTEN: Well, I imagine that he probably got the names through the
Party...the Communist Party.
LEIGHTON: Okay, how would they have got it; how would they have known
you, I guess is what I'm getting at?
VANETTEN: Well, I suppose that some of the guys who were active at that
time were probably members of the Communist Party, more than likely they
were.
LEIGHTON: Okay, and so they had passed your name on to Mortimer.
VANETTEN: I imagine that's the way it was done.
LEIGHTON: Okay. I bring up that point, because Mortimer mentions in his
book...he comes to Flint and he finds that there are a hundred and
twenty-two members left of the Federated Local and a hundred of them are
stool pigeons. He says that left twenty-two to pick.
VANETTEN: I don't think that was far wrong.
LEIGHTON: Yes, in his book he says that, and he said about a hundred of
them were...so he said he had about...the problem was trying to find
twenty-two.
VANETTEN: I saw one of the paid stool pigeons exposed in a meeting...in a
union meeting.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes, was that the meeting that Bud...
VANETTEN: Roy Reuther...
LEIGHTON: And Roy...
VANETTEN: He says, "I'm going to count three and I'm going to give him a
chance to stand up and admit it." So he counted three and nobody stood
up and he says, "John Scott, stand up so everybody can see you; we know
you're a paid stool pigeon." And you know they had to get five or six
guys to take him out. Yeah, I think they would have killed the guy; they
were that mad.
LEIGHTON: Wow, and this was during the strike, though, wasn't it?
VANETTEN: No, wait a minute...I don't know...no, it wasn't during the
strike, because this was in the Pengelly Building. So it had to be
before the big strike. But I don't remember what year that was, because
I was at that meeting myself.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember Roy Reuther being in Flint before the strike?
VANETTEN: Before the ‘30 strike...?
LEIGHTON: No, before the sit-down strike.
VANETTEN: Oh, yes, he was there then when these guys were exposed.
LEIGHTON: Okay, do you have any idea about how long he'd been in Flint?
VANETTEN: No, I don't.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember Roy Reuther teaching courses in the Pengelly
Building...classes on parliamentary procedure, public speaking, up in the
union hall?
VANETTEN: I think I do, but I'm kind of fuzzy about it.
LEIGHTON: You didn't attend any of them, though? These were classes that
he taught through a federally funded program administered by the Flint
Board of Education...which always sounded nice.
VANETTEN: I don't recall how come I never went to any of them classes.
LEIGHTON: Okay, did you get to know Roy pretty well, then?
VANETTEN: Oh, yes.
LEIGHTON: What...did Roy help you out in setting up a strike committee at
Fisher 1? Let me explain what I mean by a strike committee. I guess it's
probably different and I'm probably off base. But I'm thinking of the
group of about eighteen people which had been the strike committee. Then
you had an executive committee of the strike committee, of which I guess
you were a member, of what?...five or six people.
VANETTEN: We had five.
LEIGHTON: Five.
VANETTEN: Well, at that time were the strike committee and the executive
board were all one...all one.
LEIGHTON: Oh, I see. Is it Bob who sets up...Roy Reuther is in Flint
before Mortimer comes. Is that right?
VANETTEN: Gee, I don't know just...I don't know just when Roy came
in...whether he was there before Mortimer was or not.
LEIGHTON: When you got to know Roy Reuther was he in Flint most of the
time, or did he just come in on certain days from Detroit or...
VANETTEN: No, I think when I first knew Roy he was a paid organizer.
LEIGHTON: Okay, but he'd come up. Did Walter or Victor ever come up to
Flint before the strike, but after they had come back from the Soviet
Union?
VANETTEN: I don't recall; I imagine they did, but I wouldn't say. I
don't recall.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember when Henry Kraus came to Flint?
VANETTEN: No, I don't remember at all.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember the first issues of the Flint Auto Worker,
though?
VANETTEN: Yes, yes. I had a lot of them.
LEIGHTON: You didn't get to know Kraus though until later in the...
VANETTEN: I don't know just when I got to know Kraus either, but I knew
Kraus.
LEIGHTON: Did he visit the plant during the strike?
VANETTEN: I think he did, but I wouldn't say for sure.
LEIGHTON: The set-up inside the plant has intrigued us...those of us who
are working on this project, because we think it is a stroke of genius.
One is the setting up of the stewards, the shop stewards...the one man
for every eight, fifteen to twenty whatever it was. Were you one of
those shop stewards?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay, and Mortimer had picked you...or Travis?
VANETTEN: No, we were elected.
LEIGHTON: You were elected.
VANETTEN: By our group.
LEIGHTON: Who had nominated you...the wet sanding department?
VANETTEN: Yes, yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay. And this was Travis who was then in Flint at that time.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Did he make the suggestion to the people in the plants that
this is how they should set this up?
VANETTEN: No, no.
LEIGHTON: Where did the idea for the shop stewards come from?
VANETTEN: Well, I don't know where the idea for the shop stewards came
from, but I know when we elected shop stewards...wherever it was they
weren't at the suggestion of anybody. That's one thing I'll say about
the unions...their elections are democratic. They don't have nominating
committees and set up machinery and that way. They're elected; they're
nominated from the floor and the one that gets the most votes is it.
LEIGHTON: Yes, but what I'm getting at though, is the shop stewards
before the strike. When you set up a...you know you were shop stewards
but you couldn't tell anybody...you couldn't wear a button...you
couldn't...I'm not talking about after the strike.
VANETTEN: They didn't wear a button...shop stewards...buttons and that.
LEIGHTON: Right. But do you remember how that election took place for
the shop stewards? I mean you couldn't have just walked in the plant
before the strike and say we're going to have an election.
VANETTEN: Well, let's see, how did we work that? Well, we had a union
hall across the street from us.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: And in the departments when they had a meeting to call a
meeting of a certain department for the election of stewards, it was
called by Bob.
LEIGHTON: Okay, did he use the blinking red light?
VANETTEN: Well, that was one thing they used. But the blinking red
light...that was when everybody was supposed to watch that for when they
call over all the stewards if there was anything big happening. And
that's what they used the night of the strike.
LEIGHTON: So you did it department by department, then, electing
stewards.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay, and you did it over at that hall across the street.
VANETTEN: But the meeting was called by the...they called different
meetings on different nights and in the daytime too, see.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
VANETTEN: They'd call a meeting from the office and we'd go over there
but they didn't make the suggestion. They were elected directly from the
floor.
LEIGHTON: Okay. I was just trying to find out how it was done, because
we really don't know. Then the stewards kept Bob informed of what the
conditions were and what was going on.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: What were the main things that Bob was kind of concerned about?
VANETTEN: Well, speed-up I would say; at that time I think speed-up was
the most critical one.
LEIGHTON: Did he ask you...
VANETTEN: Speed-up and the fact of laying people off on the line of
seniority; in other words, seniority.
LEIGHTON: Did he ever ask you to tell him or keep him informed on how
ready you thought the guys were for a strike? You know whether the guys
were ready for a strike, or if you mentioned the word strike to them they
wouldn't have anything to do with you.
VANETTEN: Well, I'd say they wanted to know what the sentiments were.
LEIGHTON: Yes. In your department, by the time Bob comes to Flint, Bob
Travis...was your department ready to strike, do you think?
VANETTEN: Well...
LEIGHTON: Or did it still take some work?
VANETTEN: No, it took a little work. People were afraid because of the
fact that they didn't respect seniority or they were...everybody was a
little afraid. I can remember when they first started wearing buttons
some of them was pretty damn timid about putting on their union buttons,
you know.
LEIGHTON: Yes. Would the steward get together with Bob on occasion, with
a group?
VANETTEN: Yes, right, with a group of stewards, yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay, and you'd get together and did Bob give you some idea of
what course you were going to take in the event of a strike? When did
you first know that you were going to have a strike? Right up before the
strike itself or was it a month before?
VANETTEN: I wouldn't know exactly how to answer that. All I know is that
the discussion among the stewards and even the rank and file that they
knew there was gonna be a strike because they knew they couldn't take it
much longer. I'd say that for...I don't know what period of time to say
before the strike happened...
LEIGHTON: Was it summertime?
VANETTEN: Well, I'd say at least six or seven months before the strike,
which would probably have been in June or July or along in there. They
realized that there would be a strike unless the company gave in to some
of this stuff.
LEIGHTON: So this was a period of...in the Depression it was a period of
relative boom; in other words, the company was producing a lot more cars
than it had the year before or the year before that.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: The plans for the strike itself. Were the plans for the strike
in place before the Perkins brothers were fired? Do you remember the
Perkins brothers? The two of them got fired and the whole place went
crazy until the police had to go out and find them and bring them back to
work. What effect did that have on the guys in your department?
VANETTEN: You mean when they brought them back to work?
LEIGHTON: Right.
VANETTEN: Well, that really bolstered them up.
LEIGHTON: How did it bolster them up?
VANETTEN: Well, I mean, the buttons came on, for one thing. And there
was a different feeling in the atmosphere.
LEIGHTON: Okay, that was one month before the strike.
VANETTEN: Because we realized then that we had strength if we could make
them take them and look...we made them go out and hunt them up too.
LEIGHTON: That's right, and had the city police doing it. That was one
month before the strike, a month and about ten days.
VANETTEN: Was it, I don't remember.
LEIGHTON: Yes, I think it was about the nineteenth of November. Were
there any other little incidents like that happened...outside the plant
gates, inside...?
VANETTEN: Well, there might have been, but right now I don't recall. I
don't recall now, but I'll always remember that.
LEIGHTON: Were you aware of the time that Bob Travis went up to one of
the foreman who had been picking on one of the men, took his glasses off,
grabbed him by the shirt collar and said that he was going to lay him all
over the lot?
VANETTEN: No, I don't...
LEIGHTON: And he did this at the change of a shift and there were at
least a thousand guys around.
VANETTEN: No, I don't recall that. But I wouldn't doubt it.
LEIGHTON: And he did it on purpose too; he knew exactly what he was
doing. He was just afraid the guy might hit him, that was all.
VANETTEN: We had one chairman of the committee once that went up to the
superintendent in his office and took his glasses off and grabbed him by
the nose like that and he give it a damn good twist, too!
LEIGHTON: Did he?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: This was before the strike or was this in those first few days
when they...the superintendent was...
VANETTEN: Well, this was when the Homer Martin faction was in and we had
our difference with the Homer Martin faction.
LEIGHTON: That would have been after the strike.
VANETTEN: Yes, I think that was after the strike. No, that would have
been before the strike, because I was fired over that.
LEIGHTON: Oh, you were; how did that happen?
VANETTEN: Well, when...let's see, there was seventeen of us...
LEIGHTON: Shop stewards?
VANETTEN: ...that were fired over this demonstration...for leading in
those demonstrations. When we broke with the Homer Martin forces...
Roy Marshall was one, Pete Kennedy was one, I was one, Louie Strickland
was another...Louie Strickland was the one that twisted the
superintendent's nose.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember why he did it?
VANETTEN: Well, I forget whether that was after the...immediately after
we was fired or over the firing of the seventeen of us or not; I can't
remember that. I just don't remember whether that was before or
afterwards. If it wasn't afterwards, I can't think what the issue could
have been. But, oh, I know he was mad. I think it was after the
seventeen of us were fired. That was in '44, I think...'42. When was
the seventeen fired...have you got no story on that?
LEIGHTON: No, I don't know that. But I think it probably came after the
strike.
VANETTEN: Well, maybe it did, but I can't remember what the issue was
that he twisted his nose over, but when you was telling about Bob I
thought about that. I saw that!
LEIGHTON: Now when the Perkins brothers are brought back in the plant and
the guys spirits go up, do you then sit down with Bob and begin to plan
how you're gonna conduct the strike?
VANETTEN: Gee, as I recall, there wasn't too many meetings where we
decided exactly how we were going to do it. I can't recall that.
LEIGHTON: Did you have any meetings where you discussed how you were
going to set up...did you have meetings where you decided whether you
were going to sit down in the plant or not?
VANETTEN: Oh, there would have been a general membership meeting...now
wait a minute, I want to be sure of this. I'm quite positive that we had
a membership meeting and a strike vote was taken. But how long that
would have been before or whether that's exactly the way it happened or
not I wouldn't say for sure.
LEIGHTON: Had you been talking sit-down or sit-in very much?
VANETTEN: Oh, everybody had been talking of strike, but they...when they
said strike they just said “strike,” they didn't say sit-down.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember getting around to talking about sit-down at
all?
VANETTEN: I can't remember when they...when the first talk was mentioned
of sit-down. It must have been mentioned at some time or other, or
otherwise everybody would have walked out of the plant.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember though, yourself, how you first became aware of
the sit-down...why you chose the sit-down?
VANETTEN: Well, I think the officers of the local...and I think we
discussed it with Bob and the officers of the local first. But these are
things that are kind of fuzzy in my mind. I don't recall.
LEIGHTON: How did you to get to setting up the committees inside the
plants during the strike? You sit down on the twenty-ninth of December?
VANETTEN: Well we had regular meetings during the sit-down. If I recall
correctly I think we had a meeting every day.
LEIGHTON: Yes, but did you have meetings before the strike where you sat
down and said, "Okay, if we sit in this plant we're going to have an
exercise committee, a kangaroo court, a mayor, we're gonna have...I guess
Walter Moore was the mayor...we're gonna have a sanitation committee,
we're gonna have security patrols, we're gonna do all of this." Do you
remember how all that came about?
VANETTEN: I don't remember whether that was...it must have been worked
out at a membership meeting, but I don't recall that either. After all
forty years is a long time.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes, a long time. Were you in charge of one of the
committees when you went down in the plant?
VANETTEN: Well, I wasn't in charge of any of the committees, as I recall
now. But, see, there was five of us on what we called at that time the
“Executive Board" and we were also the strike committee.
LEIGHTON: So what was your job as a member of the Executive Board during
the strike while you were sitting in?
VANETTEN: During the strike the five of us on the Executive Board, why,
we just worked around among the fellows and kept bolstering them up.
Like guys that wanted to go home and try to talk them into staying in the
plant. And at one time I know we got down to where we only had sixty-some
or seventy-some men in the plant. And Reuther...Walt...came in that
weekend with over a hundred men and stayed in the plant over the weekend.
LEIGHTON: So that helped you out quite a bit.
VANETTEN: Then by the next week, guys were coming back in. And we
controlled what ones come out and went in. It wasn't like the Chevrolet,
where they had the Army around it and they let them out and not
in...which was a clever way of breaking the strike.
LEIGHTON: Did you have to do any work coordinating supplies and that kind
of thing...because you set up a kitchen, didn't you?
VANETTEN: Yes, we set up a kitchen and we had a...we organized committees
to go out to farmers and beg potatoes, milk and eggs and...
LEIGHTON: Okay, do you remember how did you learn of these farmers, or
did you just go out anywhere to any farmers?
VANETTEN: No, they went out, just around; and where they went we never
knew. But they got a lot of stuff. But a lot of the farmers were
against this, too.
LEIGHTON: Oh, were they?
VANETTEN: Oh yes.
LEIGHTON: Then you didn't know any of the farmers who were in support of
it?
VANETTEN: No, I didn't happen to know any, because I wouldn't have been
out on them committees because I was in the plant.
LEIGHTON: Okay. What types of committees did you have inside the plant?
Do you remember?
VANETTEN: Well, inside the plant we had...we must have had a kitchen
detail...and we had a group of about, oh I don't know how many led by
Pete Kennedy...twenty-five or thirty guys that every couple of hours they
made a circle of the plant on the inside to see that they weren't getting
police or anybody in to chase us out. Well, there's two committees, what
the hell were the other ones?
LEIGHTON: What about the kangaroo court?
VANETTEN: We didn't have a kangaroo court, as I remember. Did Bud tell
you we did, or anybody? If we did, I didn't know it.
LEIGHTON: I think he maybe...
VANETTEN: I don't remember it I should say; I might have known it then.
LEIGHTON: You had a sanitation committee, didn't you, one that had to
keep the place clean, swept up?
VANETTEN: We must have had a sanitation committee.
LEIGHTON: Let's see, what else? What about physical exercise? Did you
do anything to kind of keep the guys in shape?
VANETTEN: Well, we talked to them about it but I don't think we had any
set-up, any committee on it as I recall. I wish I could remember these
things, but I don't.
LEIGHTON: You don't remember Bob or...did Bob Travis and Mortimer...did
Mortimer ever come up during the strike to meet with you?
VANETTEN: If Mortimer came I don't recall it. But, and it could be
that's the reason that he didn't...if he didn't...the reason could be
that on account of...to keep peace with Homer Martin he might have stayed
away for that reason, you know.
LEIGHTON: Did you go in and out of the plant at all as a member of the
Executive Committee?
VANETTEN: Oh, yes. Did we have the right to go in and out of the plant
you say?
LEIGHTON: No, I meant...what I meant, was did you as a member of the
Executive Board, go in and out of the plant. In other words, would you
go to the union hall and go...as part of your job?
VANETTEN: The only one time that I remember that two of us went out, I
think it was Bud and I...I think that it was two...over to Fisher 2 they
were having a sit-down strike, too and it was led by a guy by the name of
Red Mundale...
LEIGHTON: Right, he lives down here somewhere...in Florida.
VANETTEN: Does he? And they were ready to go out of the plant. And we
went over there to bolster them up and we got them to stay in. And
that's the only one time that I can remember of going out on any
business.
LEIGHTON: Okay, so you were pretty well confined, then, in the plant
during the strike.
VANETTEN: Oh, yes, I was in there all that time, just about.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Anybody else come in and make any appearances in the
plant that you remember? Oh, Kelton Borne was in there.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes. There were a lot of newspaper...
VANETTEN: A big, great big guy, he writes stories came in there. I
forget, I think he was with the New York Times, I think. But I can't
think of what his name was; he was a huge man.
LEIGHTON: It wasn't Bill Lawrence, was it?
VANETTEN: No, no, but I can't think what his name was. You probably have
heard of him, too, if I could think of his name.
LEIGHTON: Yes, we'll chase it down somewhere.
VANETTEN: Oh, there was others, too, I know, but I don't recall who they
were.
LEIGHTON: Did Walter or Victor Reuther make an appearance at Fisher I?
VANETTEN: Walter did.
LEIGHTON: He did.
VANETTEN: Yes, when he brought up this bunch to spend the week-end in
there with us.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Did that bunch...were they all from his local in
Detroit?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: They were. Did you ever...did the guys from Toledo ever come
up? Joe Ditzel?
VANETTEN: Who?
LEIGHTON: Ditzel?
VANETTEN: I think Ditzel was there...Joe.
LEIGHTON: Yes. And Jimmy Roland?
VANETTEN: I don't remember...I don't remember him. They probably were
but...
LEIGHTON: Guy named DeVito...
VANETTEN: DeVito, I think DeVito was there, too. But I especially
remember Ditzel, Joe Ditzel.
LEIGHTON: He still lives in Toledo.
VANETTEN: Does he? Did Bob say he came up; did you ask Bob that
question?
LEIGHTON: Yes, well, he came to Flint but I didn't know whether, you know
what plant he had been in. Yes, Bob said he had come up, but...
In the...what about the kitchen across the street, now? Did you have any
contact with that at all?
VANETTEN: Well, we did, but I never personally had any contact with the
kitchen over there.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Did you know Dorothy Kraus?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Had you met her as a result of the kitchen activity
or...?
VANETTEN: I think it was as a result of the kitchen activity; I'm not
positive.
LEIGHTON: And Hazel Simons?
VANETTEN: Oh, I knew Hazel, yes. Well, I don't know whether I knew Hazel
at that time or not, either. I say, I know her, because I know her now.
But I don't recall...I don't recall if...I don't think I ever met Hazel
until after the strike. But she must have been around then, I must have
saw her but didn't know who she was, maybe.
LEIGHTON: Yes. What about the...kind of back up a little bit. The
women...now Fisher 1 is the only plant that had women working in it.
VANETTEN: Yes, they had a lot of women working in it.
LEIGHTON: And in discussing the strike...before the strike, now...did you
have any chance to talk to these women to see where they stood on the
strike?
VANETTEN: Well, we knew pretty well where the women stood, because we had
a woman steward in there named Pat Wiseman...you probably...
LEIGHTON: Yes, I've heard of her...
VANETTEN: I mean we pretty well knew what was going on through her. Gee,
offhand I'd say the women were as militant there, or more so, than some
of the men.
LEIGHTON: They were; were they disappointed in having to leave the plant
when you sat in?
VANETTEN: I couldn't answer that...I imagine that some of them were.
LEIGHTON: Yes. Do you remember any of them in particular other than Pat
Wiseman...that were, you know, the more militant ones?
VANETTEN: I don't remember too many of them. There was Edith Carpenter.
LEIGHTON: Okay, Clayton Carpenter any relation...?
VANETTEN: Yes, Clayton Carpenter's wife. It's funny that's the only
women I can think of now...their names. We had quite a few women in the
plant. Gee, there must have been, I'd say, at least three hundred, maybe
more than that, I don't know. The cushion room was where the most of
them worked; that's where the sewing was all done on the seats and on the
cushions and so forth.
LEIGHTON: Did you have any contact other than that one night that you
went to Fisher 2? You didn't have any contact during the strike with the
other plants, is that right?
VANETTEN: No, I didn't; I think Bud went out two, three times or maybe
more than that, as chairman. He might have.
LEIGHTON: Okay. During the strike, did Bill Weinstone...was he around at
all?
VANETTEN: I think we talked to Bill Weinstone one time during the strike.
LEIGHTON: In the plant?
VANETTEN: No, not in the plant, outside. But whether he was there during
the whole strike or not, I couldn't say.
LEIGHTON: Okay. Did he have any good ideas on how to...?
VANETTEN: Oh, yes, yes.
LEIGHTON: What would have been his biggest contribution in terms of ideas
on the strike? Like tactics...that sort of thing...
VANETTEN: I'd say tactics. He had a good head on him; I'll say that.
LEIGHTON: There were no other political parties that were doing anything
like that then, during the strike.
VANETTEN: No, not that I know of...
LEIGHTON: What party would you say...of all those political parties at
the time...including the ACTU and the Black Legion, were the strongest in
Fisher 1, at the time preceding the strike.
VANETTEN: Well, I'd say during the strike that the Communist Party had
more influence...that would be my guess.
LEIGHTON: With rank and file or strike leaders?
VANETTEN: No, I mean rank and file.
LEIGHTON: Okay. The ACTU...do you remember anybody connected with that?
VANETTEN: I never had too much connection with them.
LEIGHTON: Al O'Rourke, Francis O'Rourke.
VANETTEN: Yes, I remember Francis O'Rourke. Wait, he was president of
Fisher 2 at one time, wasn't he? Yes.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
VANETTEN: Yes, I remember him, but that's the first time I heard his name
mentioned in years. I'd forgotten all about him. I don't know how
come...whether Red Mundale beat him for president or whether O'Rourke
quit or what.
LEIGHTON: Well, I don't know...I just don't know the story. I think
Mundale did beat him. After the strike, in Fisher 1, how did the guys in
your department...after the strike is over are they looking ahead at all
in terms of what they're going to do with the union or are they
just...they got what they wanted and that was it?
VANETTEN: Well, they were only looking...I'd say immediately after the
strike the things they were looking forward to...by this time there was a
vicious red-baiting campaign going on. And they were all interested in
saving the country, you know, and getting rid of the Communists. And
that's what they had their attention drawn to.
LEIGHTON: Who was busy drawing their attention...do you remember?
VANETTEN: Bert Harris.
LEIGHTON: Bert Harris. So it was the Legion that was involved pretty
heavy in that.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay.
VANETTEN: Yes, I think it was the Legion that beat us.
LEIGHTON: Okay, did they hold meetings?
VANETTEN: By the way, he has a place right over here about eight or nine
miles from here.
LEIGHTON: Really, he's still alive?
VANETTEN: Oh, yeah, he was the last I know...a couple of years ago anyway
he was alive.
LEIGHTON: What town is he...?
VANETTEN: Well, he's in Peace River Shores; he has a mobile home out
there.
LEIGHTON: I'll be darned. I'm going to make a note of that, because
somebody may want to interview him.
VANETTEN: He's not there in the summer.
LEIGHTON: Where does he go in the summer?
VANETTEN: In the summer he goes into the Upper Peninsula to...now wait a
minute...Rapid River. Now whether it is right in town or right close,
they could find out probably from the post office or the mailman.
LEIGHTON: You've seen him, though since you're down here.
VANETTEN: Yes, where did I run into him? Down here in some restaurant.
LEIGHTON: That must have been a surprise.
VANETTEN: I think it was Harry's Restaurant in Punta Gorda where I run
into him. And I know he's out there, because I saw his name on the sign
and I saw his place.
LEIGHTON: Has he changed any or is...?
VANETTEN: Oh, he's as fat as ever, but I don't know whether his beliefs
have changed or not. But I know since that time that a lot of people
that were lined up with them have came to...different ones have came to
Jay Green and Bud and told them that they realize that they were
following the wrong people.
LEIGHTON: So this happened right after the strike or it happened in that
summer of '37...when you had the split?
VANETTEN: Oh, you mean the...
LEIGHTON: I mean with this red-baiting?
VANETTEN: Oh, that happened years later.
LEIGHTON: Oh, years later. I meant in the period right after the strike,
though. The strike is over, it seems to me it doesn't take very long
before, from what I've read. But what begins to happen in
your...particularly with the people you know best...the wet sanders, the
paint shop people...
VANETTEN: Well, I don't know, and the reason I don't know...see, like I
told you, I was one of the seventeen that was fired out of there.
LEIGHTON: Okay, right after the strike, then you got fired out.
VANETTEN: Not too long after that; I forget just how long it was.
LEIGHTON: So you got fired out and you didn't get back in.
VANETTEN: No, never did.
LEIGHTON: And then you went to work for the CIO.
VANETTEN: Well, not right then, but it was about eight or ten years
later, I think...no, it was quite awhile after that when I went to Palace
Cotes for awhile...
LEIGHTON: Is that in Flint?
VANETTEN: And they sent some of us over to the Buick on probation...See,
that kept us out of the plants.
LEIGHTON: And so you went to Buick.
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: How long did you spend in Buick?
VANETTEN: I don't remember how long I was there nor why I left, whether I
quit or not; I can't recall.
LEIGHTON: Did you ever run into a black man named Henry Clark?
VANETTEN: Oh, I knew Henry Clark.
LEIGHTON: You did know Henry Clark. How did you meet Henry Clark?
VANETTEN: I don't know; I can't remember what local he was from, but I
remember the name.
LEIGHTON: Well, Henry Clark probably would have been from the Buick
local. He was a foundry worker and he was pretty instrumental in
organizing the foundry workers in Buick, even though Buick didn't go on
strike.
VANETTEN: I know he was well thought of, Henry Clark was. I remember
that. I wonder is he around yet?
LEIGHTON: We think so; haven't found him yet, but we've heard from some
people who know him. Did you know anything about the workers in Buick?
VANETTEN: No, no, nothing.
LEIGHTON: You didn't. Okay, 'cause Mortimer mentions in his book that
Henry Clark played quite a role in organizing them.
VANETTEN: Yes, I remember that name when you mentioned it, right away.
LEIGHTON: Well, how long did you stay in Flint then after the
strike...after February 1937?
VANETTEN: Well, let's see...I forget what year I went to work for the
state CIO. Let me think...I think I went to work for the CIO in '46 or
'47. My first assignment was in Kalamazoo, Michigan, organizing the
paper workers. And then later I was transferred to the Gas, Coke and
Chemical Workers in Detroit. And then later on they merged, I think in
'57 or '58, long in there somewhere with the oil workers. Now it's the
Oil, Chemical, and Atomic Workers Union.
LEIGHTON: After the strike, did you notice any changes in the plants
where you worked?
VANETTEN: Well, the speed of the lines was cut quite a bit.
LEIGHTON: Any other conditions improve...other than the wages?
VANETTEN: Well, they recognized the steward system and, let's see...I
don't remember whether we had a check-off then or not...in other words,
check off and come in later. I don't remember.
LEIGHTON: It came in later, I think. Did you have any role to play in
trying to sign up workers who were not members of the union? After all,
as I understand it, when you sat down in Fisher I there were only about
six hundred workers in the union out of eight thousand.
VANETTEN: Oh, I don't believe that, though.
LEIGHTON: No, at the beginning...at the beginning of the strike when you
sat down...six hundred out of eight thousand. Now there were a lot that
signed up after that but...
VANETTEN: Well, did Bud say there was six hundred?
LEIGHTON: Yes.
VANETTEN: Well, he must have known. I thought we had more than that.
LEIGHTON: Well, a lot signed up during the forty days.
VANETTEN: But then in the next...oh I'd say a month or a couple of months
we had a lot of them.
LEIGHTON: Right. Now after the strike then...
VANETTEN: Well, see I signed up pretty near a fifth of them if we only
had six hundred. I must have signed up a hundred or better myself. I
thought we had more than that. Bud probably knew.
LEIGHTON: By the end of the strike, by February '37 you had a lot more.
VANETTEN: Oh, yes.
LEIGHTON: But after February, were there guys who wouldn't sign up?
VANETTEN: Well, like I say, shortly after that I was gone out of there.
We had a few, as I remember, the short time I was there after the strike.
I can't remember how long it was, but we had some, but not too many. The
most of them came.
LEIGHTON: Okay. When you went over to Buick you didn't keep up any
organizing? Or you just had to lay low because you were on probation?
VANETTEN: Yes, that's right.
LEIGHTON: Couldn't the union defend you at that time?
VANETTEN: Well, I suppose they would have if we had signed...but I can't
recall whether Buick by that time was pretty well signed up or not. I
don't recall, but I know they were a lot slower than even Chevrolet was.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
VANETTEN: But they weren't pushed quite as hard at Buick as they were at
Chevrolet.
LEIGHTON: The conditions at Chevrolet were probably the worst?
VANETTEN: Oh, yes.
LEIGHTON: When you think back on Flint, now...in that period after the
strike. Do you think conditions changed for the better or...?
VANETTEN: Oh, well, I think it's better, sure. I think it's better, but
it could be still improved on I think.
LEIGHTON: What do you think went wrong? If you were making an analysis
instead of me, what do you think went wrong after the strike?
VANETTEN: With what?
LEIGHTON: Well, with the...February 11, 1937 the union comes out; it's
strong. From there on it still has some big battles; some of them are
internal.
VANETTEN: Oh yes, right.
LEIGHTON: There's the red-baiting, there's the split, there's the
eventual expulsion of Homer Martin, after he's expelled everybody else.
Walter Reuther comes...well, Walter Reuther comes a little later.
VANETTEN: R. J. Thomas...
LEIGHTON: R. J. Thomas is the compromise candidate. Mortimer gives way
to Thomas.
VANETTEN: Mortimer should have been the president.
LEIGHTON: Do you think that's where things went wrong, or do you...?
VANETTEN: Yes, I do, although I give R. J. Thomas credit for a few
things, for example, during the race riots I think R. J. took a good
position.
LEIGHTON: Now when were the race riots?
VANETTEN: When he condemned the union members for participating in the
race riots.
LEIGHTON: What race riot?
VANETTEN: In Detroit.
LEIGHTON: Okay, that was what, 1940?
VANETTEN: Don't ask me; I have no idea when.
LEIGHTON: Okay, I can look it up.
VANETTEN: It would have to have been before ’49, 'cause I think Reuther
was elected president, wasn't it in ‘49?
LEIGHTON: Something like that.
VANETTEN: Right about that time. But otherwise I think Mortimer would
have been a much better man for the workers than R. J. Thomas. R. J.
Thomas was a protege of Haywood.
LEIGHTON: Of Big Bill Haywood.
VANETTEN: No, no, not Big Bill Haywood, Haywood, the vice-president of
the CIO.
LEIGHTON: Oh.
VANETTEN: Haywood and Murray.
LEIGHTON: Hapgood, you mean Powers Hapgood.
VANETTEN: No, not Powers Hapgood. Haywood, there was a Haywood. I can't
think of his first name.
LEIGHTON: I'll look him up; no problem.
VANETTEN: The red-baiting entered there, too.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember after the strike, the city manager, Barringer?
VANETTEN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember him getting dumped?
VANETTEN: Yes, but I don't remember much about Barringer. I know he was
in our plant.
LEIGHTON: Yes. And Bradshaw.
VANETTEN: Bradshaw...Harold Bradshaw, wasn't it?
LEIGHTON: No, I don't remember anything about him. Right now I can't
even remember whether he was with us or against us; I think it was
against us, wasn't it?
LEIGHTON: Yes. The police chief, a guy named Wills...
VANETTEN: Wills...oh, the most of them guys you can bet they were against
us.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember Sheriff Wolcott?
VANETTEN: Yes, I remember Sheriff Wolcott; I remember when he came into
the plant looking for us guys. He says, "Where's Bud Simons?" And
someone says, "He's gone fishing." "Where's Jay Green?" "Oh, he went
fishing, too." They were all there. I never saw...I give the guy credit
for one thing. He was a big fat slob and I'm telling you that guy was
scared to death; I'm telling you. It takes a lot of nerve to be as
scared as he was and come before a group like that where he knows a
misslip or he'll really get it!
LEIGHTON: And he had to read the riot act on top of that.
VANETTEN: Yes, he asked for each one of us and...
LEIGHTON: And nobody was there.
VANETTEN: Yes, I remember him!
LEIGHTON: In Flint, following the strike, do you remember any changes
that took place as a result of that strike, though, in the city, in and
around the city?
VANETTEN: Well, I forget how soon it was but they soon begin to elect
guys that pretended to be at least safe to friends of labor, you know.
LEIGHTON: Did you participate in any of those elections, campaign for
anybody, or raise money or anything like that?
VANETTEN: No, I never got involved in much. I just couldn't go out and
work for guys like that unless it was somebody I knew pretty well because
so often you put them in and they turn out to be enemies instead of
friends. So I always was pretty careful about getting involved in that
kind of politics.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember women particularly getting more involved,
getting out of the home, let's say, after the strike now, than they did
before? Did the strike make any difference in the life of the average
woman?
VANETTEN: Well, I imagine it did with some of them, although I can't say
as I had any direct connection with any of it in knowing any certain
ones. But I imagine it had a lot of influence to make them want to go
work, especially in the light of that the hours were going to be less and
the money more and things of that sort, you know.
LEIGHTON: Did it make any difference in your house?
VANETTEN: No, it didn't make any difference at my house; my wife didn't
go to work.
LEIGHTON: Well, I think that's about it; I can't think of anything else.
You helped me quite a bit with this Bert Harris, where he is and so on.
Do you got any people around that you think might be helpful to us?
VANETTEN: I don't know. Why don't you shut that off?